Posted by hihihans
Hello my friends, I want to talk about the future of Esato's phone cam competition.
Recently we discussed the voting system and decided to stay with one-vote one-point.
Time moves on and technology runs even faster forward as ever. The competition is running for more than five years now and the 2 megapixel cams from 2008 have become secondary front-cams. Lots of you have an iPad or tablet now and as long as you have an internet connection you don't even have to use your phone anymore. You can use Skype for calls, Facebook for text chats and some have a camera that is very well capable of taking a decent picture.
For capturing better photos there are special lenses on the market, iPhone has a kit just like the one that you could buy for
800 many years ago. they act like a zoom only.
Now there are lenses that are self sufficient, they only need a screen to see what what you are about to frame.
My question is:
Should we allow this in the competition?
Where do we draw the line?
How to verify no-one is cheating?
Please think about this. I'm open for all suggestions. Go crazy
Posted by 9_Destiny
In my opinion its bad idea. I had Samsung Galaxy Camara for a while and I know that such kind of equipment gives big advantage in comparison to mobile phones. Soon there might be more of such products made by Sony, Samsung, Nikon and Canon. Im looking forward for opposite arguments, but for now Im saying No
Posted by rikken
I say do what's always been done, pictures taken with a mobile phone and no lenses allowed
Posted by Marly
I agree with 9_Destiny and Rikken, for now, these devices shouldn't be allowed to take part in the competition, maybe we can reconsider this in a year or so, but not yet.
The extra lens for the W800i was only a zoom, but the new Sony lenses have their own sensor, so then it's not the phone anymore, that takes the picture, imo.
Don't know how to discover, if anyone has been cheating, with one of these lenses, I guess, we"ll have to wait, till the first photos, taken with those lenses, turn up in the photo section, to see, whether it shows in the exif data, or not.
Posted by emporium
[ This Message was edited by: emporium on 2013-11-03 13:44 ]
Posted by Marly
Oh yeah, forgot about the tablets
, wouldn't mind them either, as they take the photo the same way, the phone does, they're only larger.
Posted by hihihans
A handheld communication device. No extras. Real photos only.
I like that. Let's continue.
Posted by Tsepz_GP
Not much of a photographer or much of a camera phone enthusiast but what've always liked about the Camera phone competitions here throughout the years is the users pushing to get the very best out of their phones little cameras, seeing competitors entering with SE K750s, W800s, W810s, K800s, Nokia N73s, N95s, N82s, Pixon12s, LG Arenas to the latest Htc Ones, Galaxy S4s, Lumia 920s, Nexus 4s, iPhone5s etc... Is awesome and I think we should keep it like that and I do agree that tablets should be allowed to.
[ This Message was edited by: Tsepz_GP on 2013-09-02 21:02 ]
Posted by rikken
Let tablets enter the game
Posted by mlife
I'm almost inclined to say that if the device does not have a "DIALABLE" phone number attached, it does not quality for the competition. That I believe is the only way to future-proof this topic... especially considering how the lines are being blurred lately between cameras, phones, GPS units and tablets. It's not broke so why fix it?
If there are that many users saying they don't enter because they only have a tablet, then may I suggest a "monthly Tablet shootout"?
***Edit***
Oh, and just to be clear (because I already see it coming) SKYPE & Google Voice / etc DON'T count as a dialable number... it must be an actual phone that can place and receive calls without the assistance of wifi or other undetermined means.
[ This Message was edited by: mlife on 2013-09-02 22:07 ]
Posted by alenn
I think that tablets should be allowed in the competition.
I have a mobile internet device (MID) that's not just a phone.
So what about phablets?
And a big NO to that lens sensor packages stuff.
You can egattach a lens accesory that will only improve on what you've imagined, not to ruin the shot.
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by hihihans
I'm not trying to fix something that ain't broken. Just maintaing the quality.
Posted by reeflotz
My opinion, to keep competition fair:
no accessories allowed (external clip on lenses are prohibited, as well as the upcoming sensor on lens tech)
no photo post processing allowed (photoshop, android app, ios app, windows phone app are prohibited)
Exif must be intact, image must be original straight from the cameraphone or tablet.
I believe a tablet's built in camera is fine, they are in the same league as phone cameras in terms of specifications so competition will still be fair, and will all come down to the skill of the photographer, which is what the esato competition is about, apart from participating in the esato community
[ This Message was edited by: reeflotz on 2013-09-03 05:19 ]
Posted by Ricky D
I think most people here are in agreeance.
Tablets - yes
Accessories (ranging from 'clip-on' to 'sensor + lens') - no
I think there should be a line drawn somewhere on the in-camera effects too. The software effects that are applied before actual photo capture e.g. on Xperia Z there are a number of filters that aren't standard, things like kaleidoscope, sketch, Harris shutter. I felt a little guilty using these in one or two recent entries. Not guilty enough to not post the pics as they are within the current rules, but guilty enough to question myself and the nature of the competition.
Posted by razec
no photo post processing allowed (photoshop, android app, ios app, windows phone app are prohibited)
Wait that's just too rigid imho, what about BW/Sepia conversion? what if a certain cameraphone does not have a built in feature for monochrome photography? and suddenly a new theme calls for users to do BW. and that certain guy who wishes to join just couldn't do anything about it?
Posted by mlife
With all due respect, I disagree with nearly all of your post...
On 2013-09-03 08:05:16, Ricky D wrote:
I think most people here are in agreeance.
Tablets - yes
Accessories (ranging from 'clip-on' to 'sensor + lens') - no
-I'm not sure that MOST agree and if so, may a Tablet monthly shootout should be started?
-Clip-on or static accessories bring no problem as many of us have used different lenses and whatnot to change our images.... are you suggesting that NOTHING be placed between the subject and lens? ridiculous
On 2013-09-03 08:05:16, Ricky D wrote:
I think there should be a line drawn somewhere on the in-camera effects too. The software effects that are applied before actual photo capture e.g. on Xperia Z there are a number of filters that aren't standard, things like kaleidoscope, sketch, Harris shutter. I felt a little guilty using these in one or two recent entries. Not guilty enough to not post the pics as they are within the current rules, but guilty enough to question myself and the nature of the competition.
-So, no more black and white photos either? ... If you limit one in phone capability, you have to eliminate them all to keep it fair.... and that is the benefit of certain phones all-be-it an advantage in some cases.... Do you want to limit it to 8mp images also because not all phones can capture 12, 16 or 41... this is just silly IMO.
C'mon, lets not make this a huge thing, the original question was "do we allow more than phones to be used", NOT " lets revisit every rule". As said earlier, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Its a monthly phone shootout not a monthly whatever device comes up next we add to the pile shootout. Once again, if you can NATIVELY make and receive calls from a device without dependency on a data connection, I feel that is a qualified device.
just my .02 - no hard feelings
Posted by 9_Destiny
I agree with mlife.
We don't need to change anything in our monthly cameraphone competition. Using sepia or B/W is part of all camera's stock software in all mobile phones which I know. Besides such effect are appearing during taking the shot and it's not postproduction.
EXIF data can verify if some picture was edited in photoshop/picassa/instagram etc. or not.
I'm almost sure that new stuff from Sony will tag it's appearance in EXIF data.
Posted by razec
I once thought the competition goes after the results - which conveys the message, not the benchmarks, by being too rigid on certain things like post processing, just when our smartphone currently is so flexible that it can now do such feat as compared to the past times, or the use of accessory devices, we basically hinder the results, if a tool is that flexible why cap it's potential? the QX lenses is a new tech, it is built to complement mobile photographers, it was never technically a standalone camera. I don't see the point why it shouldn't be allowed. if this is Sony's way to answer those who seek quality mobile photography then why are we insisting that this tool never be used? why are some people branding such stuffs as cheating? technology is evolving, and we users should be at the forefront of this adaptation, It's kinda sad that some people are being too conservative with changes. especially if it can open further possibilities on the creativity part.
Posted by reeflotz
On 2013-09-03 12:18:05, razec wrote:
no photo post processing allowed (photoshop, android app, ios app, windows phone app are prohibited)
Wait that's just too rigid imho, what about BW/Sepia conversion? what if a certain cameraphone does not have a built in feature for monochrome photography? and suddenly a new theme calls for users to do BW. and that certain guy who wishes to join just couldn't do anything about it?
I was referring to using another app or computer program to alter the image
, There's in-camera processing filters just like you mentioned BW/Sepia which still keeps the exif intact afaik, so those should be fine. I know there has been a BW theme in esato's competition and using those simple filters are necessary. I hope you didn't misunderstand me, I was referring to apps that could completely manipulate the photos' properties such as brightness/contrast/vibrance/noise etc.[ This Message was edited by: reeflotz on 2013-09-03 14:40 ]
Posted by NOZ
It is very interesting as I am a novice in photography mobile user .... besides being new to Esato ... but I have a question since my Xperia P with android 4.1.2 has different filters and a very interesting one called my little world is round and the photograph taken after ...... I can part with it? Here some samples:
http://www.esato.com/phonepho[....]hotos.php?pid=71665&uid=212870
http://www.esato.com/phonepho[....]hotos.php?pid=71254&uid=212870
http://www.esato.com/phonepho[....]hotos.php?pid=71400&uid=212870
Posted by etaab
I think we're just over complicating what is essentially a really simple rule. It has to be taken by a mobile phone. Meaning, the camera built into the device. So, not clip on cameras with their own optics and sensors, no tablets, nothing.
With the way things are going with smart watches, cameras like the Galaxy camera, these clip on lenses, If we start bending the rules to allow such devices in before we know it the competition wont resemble anything mobile any more.
Also, how could you allow an iPad to enter, when the EXIF data does not say whether it has 3G connectivity or just humble WIFI ?
Posted by hihihans
@NOZ. We always allowed preprocessing like Scenes/White balance/Sepia. All these things are there for you to make a better photo. Doing things to your photo after you pressed the shutter button are not allowed.
Thanks everyone for your reactions. Please continue
Posted by Ricky D
For the record, when using a the new Sony accessories to take photos the "Camera" field in the exif will NOT show the smartphone model but the accessory model i.e. DSC-QX10 or DSC-QX100.
Posted by hihihans
I thought it would
I would like to rule them out of the shootout for now.
I think tablets are out also... maybe next year
Posted by etaab
Could you not just run a second competition ? one for mobile phones, one for anything - even DSLR cameras ??
Posted by hihihans
That would be a solution but I'm not interested to do it.
Most reactions towards change in the shootout are negative. Thats why I leave it as it was.
Posted by alenn
DSLR shootout would be nice as long as there are a significant number of photographers around here.
And Hihihans has enough work to do soI think someone else can run this competition.
Just a thought.
Posted by Ricky D
DSLR or just any camera? Would be an interesting competition but would it detract from the mobile comp? And is esato the proper venue for such a competition?
Posted by hihihans
I don't think esato is the place for a "any camera shootout".
Posted by alenn
Well, not really.
But, if enough people want to have it, then we should have it.
Can a poll be made on this question?
So that people could vote for or against any camera competition?
Posted by TeeGee
There are many sites/forums about all subjects of "real" photography (i.e. with DSLRs) on the interwebz, they'd be a better place for such a competition, imo.
Posted by Ricky D
I'd join a photography comp with a similar feeling to what we have here but I don't think esato is the right place to host it.
Posted by mlife
On 2013-09-07 13:16:15, TeeGee wrote:
There are many sites/forums about all subjects of "real" photography (i.e. with DSLRs) on the interwebz, they'd be a better place for such a competition, imo.
+1
Posted by Ricky D
Does anyone here have any recommendations on friendly just-for-fun photo competitions elsewhere outside esato?
Posted by VLADISLAUS
On 2013-09-03 08:05:16, Ricky D wrote:
I think most people here are in agreeance.
Tablets - yes
Accessories (ranging from 'clip-on' to 'sensor + lens') - no
I think there should be a line drawn somewhere on the in-camera effects too. The software effects that are applied before actual photo capture e.g. on Xperia Z there are a number of filters that aren't standard, things like kaleidoscope, sketch, Harris shutter. I felt a little guilty using these in one or two recent entries. Not guilty enough to not post the pics as they are within the current rules, but guilty enough to question myself and the nature of the competition.
i agree with you...
the accessories like QX Smart Lens that send the photo via NFC (CMIIW) should not allowed, IMO...
it's like taking a photo from 'non-phone' Digital Camera and then send it to your phone via bluetooth
but what about the clip-on lens accessories that has no sensor at all like this?
[ This Message was edited by: VLADISLAUS on 2013-09-10 19:54 ]
Posted by hihihans
I don't mind sensorles lenses. It would be nice if they are mentioned when used. It would be nice anyway to tell how a photo was made. Like did you use a stand or artificial light.
Posted by etaab
That wouldn't be much different than just shooting through the bottom of a clear glass or through a fish tank which distorts the image. So therefore its still the phone capturing the image, just shooting through something else.