Posted by zide
*** EDIT: Comparison between Satio and E72@12MP in the end of this page. ***
Today I got curious about the quality of Satio's 5mp photos, then I took some shots and compared it to the 12 mp ones.
Look what I got when I rezided the 5mp ones to 12mp (click on the miniature to see the full photo and then, in imagehack, right-click -> "view photo", to view in 100%):
1- 12MP
1- 5MP (Resized to 12MP)
2- 12MP
2- 5MP (Resized to 12MP)
3- 12MP
3- 5MP (Resized to 12MP)
4- 12MP
4- 5MP (Resized to 12MP)
5- 12MP
5- 5MP (Resized to 12MP)
Ridiculous. 12mp photos are just expanded 5mp ones, there is no additional captured detail. The only difference is the amount of compression added.
This is a great way too sell super mega high megapixel flagship phones! What a shame.
[ This Message was edited by: zide on 2010-10-23 18:40 ]
Posted by AbuBasim
So you finally discovered the megapixel myth?
The Satio does have a 12MP sensor but you don't get 12MP resolution from its photos due to:
- Noise reduction removing fine details
- JPEG compression also removing fine details
And most importantly:
- Poor quality lens that cannot resolve fine details onto such a small sensor. The image sensor in the Satio is not much larger than 2 matchstick heads side-by-side. And on this you project an image with 12 million pixels. To get full resolution you'd need very expensive optics. Are you ready to pay for this? Most people aren't and camphone makers like
realise this and compromise on the quality to keep the cost at acceptable levels.[ This Message was edited by: AbuBasim on 2010-10-22 09:42 ]
Posted by dipb
Also, if you have to compare, 5mp to 12 mp then you have to resize 12mp picture to 5mp size and then see the details retained not resize 5mp to 12 mp.
Posted by zide
Resizing from 12mp to 5mp will be the same as we're talking about the same picture expanded in two different resolutions, I also tested it.
About the megapixel myth, I know about it and I understand it, however, it is not supposed to be like this, literally. Usually, upgrading for a higher megapixel camera does not worth it unless we also get better optics and sensor, in this case, we are completely cheated by see as there are effectively no improvements in the image.
I'll make make a few comparison shots soon, with the 12mp Satio against the 12mp Nokia E72. And I bet that N72 will perform better at 12mp.
Posted by zide
Now some examples comparing Satio's 12MP to 5MP, this time I downsized the 12MP ones to 5MP.
12MP rezided to 5MP:
5MP:
12MP rezided to 5MP:
5MP:
12MP rezided to 5MP:
5MP:
As you can see, there is absolutely no detail lost and images are equalty good. So, I think there is no point in using Satio's 12MP setting as it will only get your media browsing and in camera operations slower. Satio is nothing more than a fine 5MP camera. Oh, and I'm curious about Pixon12 and N8.
[ This Message was edited by: zide on 2010-10-23 18:35 ]
Posted by TTT
The Pixon 12 hasn't got a big sensor so it won't be a big difference.
The N8 however would be cool to see.
Posted by AbuBasim
GSMArena posts resolution charts in their camera phone reviews. Here are full size crops from Nokia N8, Samsung PIXON12 and SE Satio, side by side:
And for comparison with two 5MP phones, scaled up to 12MP, here is Nokia E72 and SE C901:
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Posted by dipb
@zide thanks for the new set of snaps 12mp rezide to 5mp.. if you compare them side by side, you will realise that 12mp rezided contains more details compared to 5mp. look at the last indoor picture containing the brush, you will the big difference. Same is noted in the outdoor ones which are bit at a distance. Also, the road has got more details specially near the cobbled road on left hand bottom corner in your first set.
AbuBasim's post makes it clear further.
Posted by Dimas.94
Now that's something!
Posted by zide
The difference is so vestigial that I really think that's caused by the stronger JPEG compression (note that even after resized 12MP photos are almost 60% bigger).
Anyway, I tried to open a thread with some Satio vs E72@12MP but moderators started bugger me.
Here it is:
Yeah, everybody knows that MPs don't don't matter that much but in the end we all get our low MP phone replaced with a higher one. Now some samples comparing Satio to E72 with 12MP (expanded using Windows 7's paint) and one comparing Satio at 5MP with E72 also with 5MP:
All with auto-mode (except the Daylight WB):
E72 12MP:
Satio:
E72 12MP:
Satio:
E72 12MP:
Satio:
E72 12MP:
Satio:
E72 12MP:
Satio:
Here is Satio at 5MP:
E72 5MP:
Conclusion:
E72's shows more detail but also more noise and it seems to me that Satio is a fake 12 MP phone as it's capabilities are on par with E72's 5MP sensor. This way all good 5MP phones, such as C901, 6700, Elm, etc, could be advertised as 12MP phones because their are as good in 12MP as Satio.
Any way, I'm selling my E72 and I'll keep my Satio manly because of the month album gallery, camera cover, xenon and more accurate auto-focus and ISO selection in lowlight scenes.
[ This Message was edited by: zide on 2010-10-23 20:02 ]
Posted by norbi_nw
all SE phones take red pictures by default. Xenon and no xexnon they are all red-ish. Aka. THEY SUCK HORSEBALLS!
no detail at all. all fine detail are washed out. When nokia used this much noise reduction you all where "nokia sucks" and now SE uses it, and all look like painting, now some of you still have a nice tongue and know how to use it to worship SE.
I have had it with SE since my G900 and then the final drop was the Satio.
Posted by gharknes1
well you guys are missing the point here, downsizing a 12mp photo to 5mp is exactly what you are doing, it is a smaller picture with less pixels, now try zooming a 5mp picture 10x then do the same with a 12mp picture without altering the pixel density then you will see the difference, picture size does not equate to pixel count it indicates zoom level or density, as an example, take a look at a newspaper picture really close - it will be made up of tiny dots, now zoom a section of it with a magnifying glass, the picture increasesin size but the pixcel density stays the same.
Posted by mriley
Looking at the first post, there is a difference between the 5MP photos and the 12 MP ones, but the only difference is resolution. Both 5MP and 12MP have the same terrible quality, at ISO 500 the noise covers everything.
Having 12MP doesn't mean better picture quality, it just means more resolution, which you can only really use when its sunny otherwise all your cropping is noise. Since when did people need so much resolution on camera-phones anyway?
The 12MP downsized to 5MP look slightly better than the 5MP ones, but only very slight better resolution.
Using 5MP instead of 12MP wont increase quality, it will only save space and if I had a satio I would keep maximum resolution and stick to taking photos in good light.
As AbuBasim says, the photo quality is not just about the sensor, it's also about good optics, something that is unrealistic to put in a phone, and satio's potential detail with the 12 MP resolution is totally ruined by its processing.
Nokia E72 crushed the satio in the comparison, E72 has much more detail, satio pics have a huge amount of noise reduction added in processing. The Satio photos are more saturated than the E72, I prefer E72 - much more detail, more realistic colours.
Why are the E72 photos re-sized to 12MP? I think it would be better to see each camera at its original resolution and compare details that way - should be Satio @ 12MP vs Nokia E72 @ 5MP.
In regards to satio - what's the point in having such a high resolution when excessive noise reduction and compression ruins any potential detail?
I aggree with your conclusion, I'm not sure about 'fake' resolution, the amount of detail produced has a lot to do with the processing the camera does to produce the JPEG, such as sharpening, noise reduction, and saturation.
Posted by zide
@ gharknes1: In the first row of examples you have upsized photos. There you can see that even expanded 5MP photos keep the same detail as original 12MP ones (might be a very small difference however I believe it's caused by the stronger JPEG compression).
@ mriley: I have upsized E72 photos so we can compare both phones at the same resolution and therefore show that Satio is not a 12MP phone. It is a 5MP phone, with a 12MP mode that expands it's 5MP captures to 12MP!
If I add some noise reduction to E72 12MP photos I get with a photo just like Satio's, still slightly better.
Posted by mriley
@ mriley: I have upsized E72 photos so we can compare both phones at the same resolution and therefore show that Satio is not a 12MP phone. It is a 5MP phone, with a 12MP mode that expands it's 5MP captures to 12MP!
That's not true though, you're only evidence for that is that when 5MP E72 photos are scaled up to 12MP they look comparable (better) than the Satio's shots.
There's a difference between picture size and the amount of megapixels on a sensor, there are 12 million pixels on the satio's sensor, not 5 million, so it does produce 12 MP photos. The only thing is that makes the pictures turn out so bad is the processing and compression after the photo has been captured.
Posted by zide
Well, I've been using Satio for this last couple of days and I've changed my mind. I'll keep my E72 and I'll sell my silver Satio. I'll sacrifice some advantages of Satio's camera (mainly xenon and practical lens cover) for E72's overall experience, which is better in my opinion. For good photos I have my K-x!
[ This Message was edited by: zide on 2010-10-24 22:22 ]
Posted by mriley
Good decision
Posted by norbi_nw
man i was angry at you for posting full sized pictures on this thread... and alot of them. Had to wait eons to load, and i wasn curious about them, i just wanted to read and because they loaded page jumped alot.
:/
Posted by zide
Yeah man, sorry about that. Now imagehack has this zoom-in thing and that makes it download the full photo first. ;f
Posted by mrphil_cymru
@Zide, I'm afraid your tests are flawed. I can see differences in your first post. I don't dismiss your intention, you clearly feel that the E72 results in a better picture.. probably due to your preference in the white balance.. many people prefer cooler temperatures to the warm balance the Satio has.
As for resolution, the Satio set to 12MP takes pictures with better detail than set in 5MP. You need to compare 12MP photo with 5MP photo.. don't resize.. look at the fine detail in each picture when you zoom down to near pixel resolution.
Your first test (resizing 5MP up to 12MP) clearly shows differences in picture quality, refuting your claim. If you can't see those differences, zoom in. But the real test should be done with 5MP photo against 12MP photo with no resize conversions.
As for white balance, every camera has it's own levels... in Auto mode, camera's from different manufacturers will have different white balance results as they have their own methods of determining the Auto levels. People's preference to a cool or warm level is down to individual perception and I agree, is enough in most cases to switch peoples decision on which camera to buy, even though all camera's have a manual white balance setting... which should ultimately be used, because Auto levels are just a convenient setting for general use and don't always get it right, depending on the conditions.
Posted by mriley
@mrphil_cymru
It's not just about white balance, when looking at details produced it's also a lot about how much noise reduction is put on the pictures, there's no point in having high resolution 12MP photos if the in-camera processing smears these details.
I agree it should be Satio 12MP vs E72 5MP and in photos taken in sunny conditions... where the cameras perform best.