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X11: what it SHOULD be


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Posted by pavlov's_dog
Given the very tough competition, I think us fans of SE should chip in and help SE "decide" what the X11 successor should be, so to speak.

This is not a wishlist. I think we need to set a minimum criteria that would ensure the X11 critical and commercial success.
This may just be a forecast of next year's trends.

- 4" HD (720 x 1280) next-generation AMOLED display with MULTI touch support (I know HD is a little too much for it's size but hey, why not?)
- 2GHz processor (at least)
- Scratch proof mineral display and all-metal body
- a better 12MP camera with xenon flash and photolight
- 1080p full HD video capture
- Stereo speakers
- Android 3.x (the latest one upon release)
- THEMES (the blue one is making me dizzy. it's funny to ask for something so basic 5 years ago)

and of course the X11 mini!

- 3" VGA next-gen AMOLED with MT
- everything else mentioned above but with a weaker cam (say 8MP and photolight)
- dimensions: 90mm x 54mm x 12mm

as for the design philosophy, I think SE is doing very well with human curvature. Industrial will be a very big hit (see Iphone4) but it has been done before (i.e., T610, K700)

What do you think? I know most of these features only good on paper. But still they are very important in terms of marketing. Feel free to add/change anything.
[ This Message was edited by: pavlov's_dog on 2010-06-23 16:50 ]



Posted by boy.in.PINK

On 2010-06-23 17:44:32, pavlov's_dog wrote:
Given the very tough competition, I think us fans of SE should chip in and help SE "decide" what the X11 successor should be, so to speak.

This is not a wishlist. I think we need to set a minimum criteria that would ensure the X11 critical and commercial success.
This may just be a forecast of next year's trends.

- 4" HD (720 x 1280) next-generation AMOLED display with MULTI touch support (I know HD is a little too much for it's size but hey, why not?)
- 2GHz processor (at least)
- Scratch proof mineral display and all-metal body
- a better 12MP camera with xenon flash and photolight
- 1080p full HD video capture
- Stereo speakers
- Android 3.x (the latest one upon release)
- THEMES (the blue one is making me dizzy. it's funny to ask for something so basic 5 years ago)

+11

but can we make the speaker 2.1? i mean, stereo speakers with subwoofer... LG has it...


and of course the X11 mini!

- 3" VGA next-gen AMOLED with MT
- everything else mentioned above but with a weaker cam (say 8MP and photolight)
- dimensions: 90mm x 54mm x 12mm

can we make it lower like the X10? like:
- 2.4" AMOLED (maybe w/o MT)
- 2MP, dual/trio photolight, AF
- VGA recording @ 30FPS
- longer battery life
- no 3G support
- Walkman 4.0 player with Clear Audio EQ

Posted by >500
Android does not allow for Themes im fairly sure... At least in current versions it doesnt.

Though with all these customs roms and things, its a wonder people havent figured out who to do so!

Posted by Muhammad-Oli

On 2010-06-23 17:44:32, pavlov's_dog wrote:
- 4" HD (720 x 1280) next-generation AMOLED display with MULTI touch support (I know HD is a little too much for it's size but hey, why not?)
- 2GHz processor (at least)
- Scratch proof mineral display and all-metal body
- a better 12MP camera with xenon flash and photolight
- 1080p full HD video capture
- Stereo speakers
- Android 3.x (the latest one upon release)
- THEMES (the blue one is making me dizzy. it's funny to ask for something so basic 5 years ago)



"- 2GHz processor (at least)" Personally I think 1.5 is easily enough, and is likely all we're really going to see in 2010/11. 2GHz is a bit over the top for a phone at this stage because we all have seen that current mobile phone OSs run perfectly on a 1GHz processor.

"- Scratch proof mineral display and all-metal body" I would prefer a half metal, half plastic frame. All metal makes a phone too heavy or can disrupt the signal as we are now seeing with iPhone 4.

"- a better 12MP camera with xenon flash and photolight" I think 8MP is enough. Xenon is a want.

"- 1080p full HD video capture" Agree. If SE want to stay ahead of the game, this is the next step.

Posted by peter geerts
Instead of higher CPU speed I'd rather like to see a (better) GPU.

Posted by HxH
I would love to see something about dual-cpu 1.5Ghz as minimum

About the screen I want Bravia technology put in their global phone not only Japanese market
Not preferred AMOLED at all cost, it can't work well under sun light
and I feel it over contrast color not friendly with my eyes but clear crisp and deep black color I have to admit it.
S.AMOLED is exclusive for SS so it will not likely for other manufactured DON'T ASK FOR IT!

make the feeling of holding C901 while using material like w995 it would be perfect
with 3.5" screen is enough don't big to much to hold and one hand can handle it

After N8 release 12mp would be real standard setter instead of continue megapixels war
better improve sensor size as N8 did and with EXMOR it will work perfectly and XENON is must have for full functional camera

design-wise is excellent I know altogether with XPERIA TimeScape MediaScape

I'm sold with my dream

Posted by basithz
what about a 4 inch HD 3D screen would be pretty cool aswell as sony ericsson branded 3D glasses along with a 1-2ghz processor and to top it all of latest version of android.

im pretty sure if they can pull that off and sell it for about £650-700 then they'll probably be up to date for a lobg time.

Posted by phonecrzy
3D is bad for a phone, imagine every time u want to use your phone u need 2 bring some 3d glasses with u and wear them as well. Stick with AMOLED, LED, Retina Display Etc. but 3D is too much for a phone, and wayyy tooo expensive.

Posted by Muhammad-Oli

On 2010-06-26 23:12:35, basithz wrote:
what about a 4 inch HD 3D screen would be pretty cool aswell as sony ericsson branded 3D glasses along with a 1-2ghz processor and to top it all of latest version of android.

im pretty sure if they can pull that off and sell it for about £650-700 then they'll probably be up to date for a lobg time.


3D with glasses on a phone would be absolutely laughable. I'd like to see the technology from the 3DS make it onto a phone, where there would be no need for glasses.

Posted by basithz

On 2010-06-26 23:35:13, Muhammad-Oli wrote:

On 2010-06-26 23:12:35, basithz wrote:
what about a 4 inch HD 3D screen would be pretty cool aswell as sony ericsson branded 3D glasses along with a 1-2ghz processor and to top it all of latest version of android.

im pretty sure if they can pull that off and sell it for about £650-700 then they'll probably be up to date for a lobg time.


3D with glasses on a phone would be absolutely laughable. I'd like to see the technology from the 3DS make it onto a phone, where there would be no need for glasses.



what i meant by 3D is that you can watch 3D movies and it'll still have a normal hd screen

Posted by rss_ndrsn
I think X11 should be like this

Camera

12.1 megapixel liquid lens plus Exmor sensor size 1/1.9" or 1/2.33"
- Touch Focus, Auto-Focus, Infinite, Macro, OFF
- Blink Detection, Smile Detection, Face Detection, Photo Fix, Sweep Panorama, Best Pic, Frames, Geo-tagging
- ISO up to 3200, EV, , Image Stabiliser, Metering Mode, Night Mode, Self-timer, Raw mode
- 16x Digital zoom, 3x optical zoom
- Scenes: Auto, Twilight portrait and landscape, Landscape and portrait, Beach/snow, Sports and Document
- White Balance - Auto, Daylight, Cloudy, Fluorescent, Incandescent
- Effects: Black and White, Negative, Sepia, Solarise, Night Vision, Cartoonized
- Sulphur Plasma Flash: Auto, Red-Eye Reduction, OFF

Secondary cam
- video call at 1.3 megapixel resolution

Full HD 1080p

- Save in H.264 format or DIVX
- Resolution: 1080p, 720p, WVGA, VGA, CIF
- Frame rate: 30 fps, 24 fps
- Mode: Slow-motion, Time-lapse, Normal (1080p to VGA)
- Focus: Continuous Auto-foucus, Auto-focus, OFF
- ISO up to 3200, Image stabiliser, Metering Mode, EV, Night Mode, Self-timer
- Mic: Front, Back, audio zoom, 5.1 surround sound
- 16x digital zoom, 3x Optical zoom
- White Balance - Auto, Daylight, Cloudy, Fluorescent, Incandescent
- Effects: Black and White, Negative, Sepia, Solarise, Night Vision, Cartoonized
- Sulphur Plasma Flash

Screen

4.0" Capacitive Super TFT LCD by Sony with 16 million colors
- 720p or 640 x 960 resolution
- proximity sensor
- incorporates Sony and SE's Touch Panel Technology
- Gorilla glass display
- multi-touch support
- 300 DPI

Body

- Dimension 115 x 63 x 12 mm
- 130 g
- Made with environment-friendly materials
- Waterproof, scratch proof, shock proof and finger-print resistant

Design

Combination of X10, Satio and Vivaz's designs

Connectivity

- GSM/EDGE 850 / 900 / 1800 / 1900
- HSDPA/HSPA 800 / 850 / 1700 / 1900 / 2100
- 4g/Wimax or HSPA 14/21 mbps support
- Wi-fi b/g/n, DLNA
- GPS with A-GPS
- Digital Compass
- Built-in Stereo FM Radio with RDS (can be used without plugging the headset) and FM Transmitter
- Bluetooth 4.0 or 5 with A2DP
- microUSB 2.0
- HDMI mini v1.3 or v1.4
- 3.5mm headphone jack
- Three microphones - one with noise cancellation technology
- Double stereo speakers
- Low SAR value

Memory

- I GB RAM, 2 GB ROM
- 16/32/64 gb MoviNAND internal memory
- micro SDXC card slot up to 2 TB

CPU and GPU

OMAP 4440
- 1.5 Ghz
- POWERVR SGX545

Battery

- Li-Po 1800 mAh

Software

- Android's latest version
- UPX UI layer
- Much improved Timescape and Mediascape applications
- Accelometer and Gyroscope
- Support for MKV/FLV.DIVX/XVID/RV/WMV/H.264/H.263 video formats
- Support for MP3/WAV/WMA/RA/eAAC+/AC3/FLAC audio formats
- Video playback without conversion
- Smart Dialing and Speed dial

Extra Features

- Track ID music recognition
- SensMe and Shake Control
- Sony's Remote Play
- Mobile TV
- 5.1 surround sound
- Profiles
- Document Viewer
- Voice/Memo/Dial Commands
- Gesture control (silence a call or an alarm by waving one's hand above the front cam)
- Flashlight (using the Sulphur Plasma flash)
[ This Message was edited by: rss_ndrsn on 2010-07-25 06:35 ]


Posted by Muhammad-Oli

On 2010-06-27 00:02:43, basithz wrote:

On 2010-06-26 23:35:13, Muhammad-Oli wrote:

On 2010-06-26 23:12:35, basithz wrote:
what about a 4 inch HD 3D screen would be pretty cool aswell as sony ericsson branded 3D glasses along with a 1-2ghz processor and to top it all of latest version of android.

im pretty sure if they can pull that off and sell it for about £650-700 then they'll probably be up to date for a lobg time.


3D with glasses on a phone would be absolutely laughable. I'd like to see the technology from the 3DS make it onto a phone, where there would be no need for glasses.



what i meant by 3D is that you can watch 3D movies and it'll still have a normal hd screen


My point still stands. Nobody will want to be seen watching a movie on a mobile phone with those ridiculous 3D glasses on. If they are going to put 3D on a phone (I personally hope they don't waste their time with gimmicks like this), then I hope they do it like the 3DS. No glasses, yet still 3D.

Posted by DarkKrypt
i believe sharp has already done it,
except you dont need 3d glasses to watch 3d movies on the new sharp phone they have developed..
so you wont look like a stooge with those 3d glassses - you dont need them

Posted by rss_ndrsn
^Samsung has already announced a phone with 3D screen that does not need 3D glasses. But it is only for Korean market.

Here's the link: http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_w960_amoled_3d-3319.php.

Live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyIiAdFzQdA&feature=related

Knowing SE, they are probably the last one to make a phone with 3D screen, let alone one with Pico projector.
[ This Message was edited by: rss_ndrsn on 2010-06-28 03:03 ]


Posted by Muhammad-Oli
I'd rather SE not make a pico projector phone. For the amount of people that would genuinely use it often (ie. Not just a few times until the novelty wears off), it is a waste of precious development time.

Pico projector phones are for companies that make so many phones that they can afford a few niche models, like Samsung.

Posted by rss_ndrsn
^I'm not really looking forward to seeing a Pico projector built-in on SE phone in the near future, probably just an accessory.

I beg to disagree that it is a waste of time to develop a Pico projector phone. It is like saying that developing a camera phone is also a waste of time or one with 3D screen. The feaures that we now consider standard for mobile phones all started as something we thought were just "gimmicks." Technology progresses as time goes by, and people are always looking for something better each year. Who would want to pay for phones that offer almost the same thing each year (IPhone is an exception; it still has the best overall smartphone OS at the moment)? Even though it is quite expensive and the quality is just acceptable, sooner or later Pico projectors will get better and cheaper. Once people become acquainted with its function, they would sure find a lot of way to use it.

I do not think Pico projector phone is a "niche" product, probably now as only Samsung and LG have announced phones sporting ones. Once it reach most of the market, people would be consider it on their checklists on what features their new phones should have.

SE is in technology business. It is very essential for them to remain innovative and always be up to date on what's latest. Competition is tight nowadays; it is either you start a new trend or just go with the flow.
[ This Message was edited by: rss_ndrsn on 2010-06-28 06:46 ]


Posted by clauf
Here's my modest wishlist. The problem with Sony Ericsson right now is that their high end phones aren't so, high end. Motorola recently has been making a huge comeback, and the primary reason is that they are producing what the consumer really wants. I hated Motorola before their Droid. And now with the Droid X coming out on Verizon, I'm amazed to see how Motorola turned around these past few years.

By the way, themes are possible on Android devices via third party apps.

Most of these features I listed below are already available in devices in Japan.

Xperia X11
Connectivity


Design


Display


Camera


Custom Andorid User Interface


Speaker


Optional X11 Detachable Keypad


Optional X11 Dock


X11 Mini
Connectivity


Design


Camera


Display


Custom Andorid User Interface

[ This Message was edited by: clauf on 2010-06-28 12:35 ]


Posted by pavlov's_dog
@clauf

I don't think 1024X480 is 16:9. Another possible resolution, without being an overkill, would be Full nHD: 960x540 but it's not very kosher.lol I think HD is still the best way to go. And we have to throw in there HDMI support too.

Posted by clauf

On 2010-06-28 11:49:32, pavlov's_dog wrote:
@clauf

I don't think 1024X480 is 16:9. Another possible resolution, without being an overkill, would be Full nHD: 960x540 but it's not very kosher.lol I think HD is still the best way to go. And we have to throw in there HDMI support too.


Typo: 1024x576 WSVGA is 16:9 =)

Posted by TTT
I agree with you except for the camera.

X11 Mini
Connectivity


Design


Camera


Camera UI
You start the camera and get to Layer 1.

Here you can choose:

Scenes:


White Balans:


Focus:


Switch to 2nd Layer




Layer 2.

Flash:


Switch to Video/Camera

Gallery

Switch back to 1st Layer



Display


Custom Andorid User Interface

[ This Message was edited by: TTT on 2010-07-01 10:48 ]


Posted by phonecrzy
all i have to say is i hope its not called X11...

Posted by Sumatra
Who ever can get one of the new laser based pico projectors into a smartphone without killing battery life will get my money... hopefully by that time I'll either have saved up enough pennies or the cost of the lasers will have come down

Posted by my ninja
- 4.0" SXGA+ (1400*1050, 4:3 it is less square) screen 24bit color stantum resistive multi-touch support
- 4 row backlit, soft touch keyboard.
- 8.0 megapixel backlit sensor with auto-focus, 24x digital zoom, 720p video recording at 120 fps (with fast and slow motion modes) and Dual LED + Xenon Flash
- 128 GB Toshiba internal memory, 2 GB RAM and 8 GB ROM, microSDXC compatible memory slot
- Bluetooth 3.0 with A2DP, wi-fi b/g/n with DLNA, GPS with a-GPS, Digital Compass, combo 3.5 mm *line/optical* spdif (in & out (2 ports)), microUSB 3.0, microHDMI 1.4, built-in FM Radio with RDS, & FM Transmitter, stereo microphones, stereo norris audio hypersonic speakers (direct audio, instead of dissipating sound waves)
- GSM 850 / 900 / 1800 / 1900 ; HSDPA 850 / 900 / 1700 / 1900 / 2100; HSPA+ support up to 21 mbps
- 1.5 Ghz OMAP 4440 (A9) processor with SGX545 GPU ... DEDICATED AUDIO PROCESSOR !!! (Flat FR from RMAA is a MUST)
- 2.0 megapixel secondary camera (full screen front facing video calling at 2.0 megapixel resolution), Li-Po 1800 mAh battery, compass, gyroscope, accelometer, IR port

ideally, i would like a level of control where i could access the hardware and shutoff components that are unnecessary, save battery life. eff androind and symbian, hop on that intel nokia train with maemo/meego!
[ This Message was edited by: my ninja on 2010-07-20 00:23 ]


Posted by NightBlade
I'd like a microwave oven with that as well.

Posted by XPHCTOC
Why everyone is so obsessed with amoled screen??? Amoled screens are not readable under the sunlight. X10 classic lcd screen is way better than the amoled shown in the N1 and Desire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58gZzqvqhRk). I would prefer for the "X11" a Slcd (superLcd screen developed by both Sony and Samsung)...
[ This Message was edited by: XPHCTOC on 2010-07-20 00:43 ]


Posted by rss_ndrsn

On 2010-07-20 01:42:42, XPHCTOC wrote:
Why everyone is so obsessed with amoled screen??? Amoled screens are not readable under the sunlight. X10 classic lcd screen is way better than the amoled shown in the N1 and Desire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58gZzqvqhRk). I would prefer for the "X11" a Slcd (superLcd screen developed by both Sony and Samsung)...
[ This Message was edited by: XPHCTOC on 2010-07-20 00:43 ]



Is it called SuperLCD or Super-IPS LCD?


Posted by sealover94
here we go again.... just like i said again and again....


Sonyericsson is announcing a phone...
Sonyericsson is announcing the delay of the phone...
SE fans spend their time begging SE to finish the phone...
Spend their money buying an outdated model ...
And then open a new thread about their dreaming phone...
SE will dissapoint them once again by presenting a phone with less features .. and the delay will finish the job....

AND ALL OVER AGAIN!!

In a post i upload a year ago i said "2010 WILL BE THE LAST YEAR FOR SE" ....So MARK my words and stop dreaming!

Posted by pavlov's_dog
@sealover

Wow thanks for the bump and for your very valuable contribution to this thread.

Posted by XPHCTOC

On 2010-07-25 07:47:26, rss_ndrsn wrote:

On 2010-07-20 01:42:42, XPHCTOC wrote:
Why everyone is so obsessed with amoled screen??? Amoled screens are not readable under the sunlight. X10 classic lcd screen is way better than the amoled shown in the N1 and Desire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58gZzqvqhRk). I would prefer for the "X11" a Slcd (superLcd screen developed by both Sony and Samsung)...



Is it called SuperLCD or Super-IPS LCD?

it's called SLCD (see Link text...). IPS LCD is used by Apple.
[ This Message was edited by: XPHCTOC on 2010-07-26 09:30 ]


Posted by Bonovox
As for the blue theme I hate it I am sure Android does themes I seen them on Android market

Posted by Hobbs
It SHOULD never be released until us X10 users
get sorted out.
[ This Message was edited by: Hobbs on 2010-07-28 06:31 ]


Posted by Toney_Ericsson
I want it to print f*ing money

Link text...

Posted by blackspot
Besides the typical smart phone functionalities, what I would like the next Xperia to have (I don't know if it's necessarily X11):
1. Latest Android OS
2. Multi-touch screen
3. 3.5", 480x800 Super AMOLED screen (or whatever next best LCD there is)
4. 3.5mm stereo output
5. mini HDMI port with HD video support
6. HD video recording (720p is fine as long as it's stutter-free), supports mp4 or divx
7. high quality directional stereo audio recording
8. at least 8MP camera with larger sensor with better high-ISO noise performance
9. camera with auto, or creative modes, Auto/manual focus, 24-135mm (35mm equiv) optical zoom lens
10. 2 ports for hot-pluggable micro SDHC cards, easily accessible
11. price $600 or less
[ This Message was edited by: blackspot on 2010-08-09 17:45 ]


Posted by miguel82

On 2010-07-25 10:23:44, sealover94 wrote:
here we go again.... just like i said again and again....


Sonyericsson is announcing a phone...
Sonyericsson is announcing the delay of the phone...
SE fans spend their time begging SE to finish the phone...
Spend their money buying an outdated model ...
And then open a new thread about their dreaming phone...
SE will dissapoint them once again by presenting a phone with less features .. and the delay will finish the job....

AND ALL OVER AGAIN!!

In a post i upload a year ago i said "2010 WILL BE THE LAST YEAR FOR SE" ....So MARK my words and stop dreaming!




lololol
Well this is not a contribution to this thread... but thats true!! Not about beeing Last year for SE but for all the rest.
And if SE dont change... maybe they wont last much longer...
X10 in Portugal is a rip of, just like the iphone3gs... (the most expensive and outdated phone)
Samsung and HTC android flagship models are way more cheap (with better hardware and software, besides the camara)

Posted by Toney_Ericsson
Just buy a HTC Desire HD

Posted by angryman
1Gb of ram
16Gb internal Storage + hot swappable sd card slot
Whatever the best cpu at the time is
4 inch 16:9 screeen with 16mill colours, IPS panel and lower power consumption than whatever the x10 is currently using.
No bigger than the X10
Multi touch
Higher quality face buttons
Ability to disable propriety Sony Ericsson Apps/Non essential services (eg face recognition)
Better earphone and loud speaker.
Better or at least equal battery performance to the x10.
Faster software updates, or at least allow the dev community to release custom roms.

Posted by roanmy
Hmm...

-I'd like the same resolution as iPhone4/IS03, preferably 3.5'',
but I'm guessing it'll be 4''. I do NOT want a bigger one. =P
-CCD-camera, 8, 9.6mp etc not so important
-16mill colors. This is LONG overdue.
-S-LCD screen. Amoled isn't good in sun light
-Somewhat similar design, I rather like it
-1.5Ghz
-Keep Japanese language as an option

Not sure, really. Screen and camera is the most important for me aside from apps, but that's not really up to SE.

Posted by vegetaleb
Actually you can change themes if you use special launchers like ADW or HelixLauncher or LauncherPro under OS 2.1

Posted by zub
you guys are all seriously deluded if you think any of the phones you mentioned here will come to fruition....



Posted by Alihosny
i prefer mid-high end phones like..., say x9:
-3.5 inch 480*854 16:9 next gen amoled,slcd2 or even the bravia branded lcd released in japan
-1-1.2 ghz cpu with a powerful gpu
-512-1gb of ram.
-an 8 mp camera with xenon or dual led with 720p recording at 30fps.(maybe the one in the vivaz with some improvements will sell)
-latest android version.
-walkman 4.0 player.
-divx/xvid support with up to 720p playback.
-and hdmi output
-noise cancellation with extra mic that also allows stereo recording.
-as for design ,i think SE are doing their homework ,their designs are the best(x10,vivaz,aino,x8,x10mini,and an excellent design history).
-16/32gb internal storage.
-all in one communication center with contacts ,fb,twitter,flicker,youtube,mail and im client.one app to rule them all with tight integration with music player and video player so that all data on the phone can be shared or uploaded to the internet,like share what you are listening to on im client,fb..etc(communication social ministry ).
-of course make a pro version or deattachable keyboard.
-Battery:
music playing:50h
video playing (sd):20h
surfing the internet wifi/3g:24h
online streaming:20h
playing games (ex:angry birds):30h



Posted by jplacson
No screen should be WORSE than the existing iPhone 4 and iPod Touch's Retina Display w/ IPS?
At 960x640 on a 3.5" screen, if ANY Android comes out with anything less than that now on a larger than 4" screen... I will be EXTREMELY bored. Minimum screen resolution for phones w/ a 4" or larger screen should at least be 720p HD...nothing less.

Now, 640x480 on a 2.5" screen like the X10 Mini/Pro... that would be ok.

Posted by Hobbs
Wanting the latest version of Android can most probably only happen if you dump the Timescape and Mediascape integration.As long as those two things are included,I can always see SE behind one software version or God forbid,two

Posted by xnuo
guys, you are still hoping for far too much things inside one package, and even if they pull it off, remember that it won't be easy on your pocket...

i was gonna buy an 11 inch macbook air, but backed out cuz of the expensive price.

let's ask for moderate improvements over our usual high end advancements and maybe, just maybe, we'll see them fullfilled next year...

Posted by tranced
The rumor wish list didn't go as we wanted with this phone. Now we have it official now. So no need to having this thread going on.




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