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Author George W. Bush;s Resume (C.V)
*Jojo*
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Posted: 2004-06-10 21:23
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May the late US' 41st President - Ronald Reagan's soul rest in peace!
*candle was chosen in random - AIDS awareness included here, though he was not infected - my apologies!

slattery69
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Posted: 2004-06-10 21:27
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good old morrisey even now he still knows how to get a bit of free coverage just as his new album is out and he is about to start on a tour
axxxr
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Posted: 2004-06-10 21:28
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Morrisey has always been outspoken about his politcal opinions i cannot disagree with most of the things he says.Good on him. [addsig]
Sammy_boy
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Posted: 2004-06-11 01:14
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He wrote some damn good songs too!
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

gelfen
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Posted: 2004-06-11 01:21
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however, it is wrong to wish death on anyone (even george bush - it's too good for him ).

Failure

@axxxr: i'm happy to run with political debate because i don't take any of it personally, and i'm glad you don't either. everyone has a right to express an opinion and i respect that, but equally i have the right to do the same. i will come back to your lengthy post later when i have more time.

"I may not agree with a word you say, but I shall defend unto my death your right to say it."
-- Voltaire (1694-1778)


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[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2004-06-11 00:56 ]
axxxr
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Posted: 2004-06-11 05:56
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A key congressman moves to withhold funding for the development of new atomic arms, in a blow to the Bush administration.

It ain't dead, yet. But the Bush administration's push to research and develop new nuclear weapons could be on the verge of collapse, after a key Congressional leader moved on Wednesday to eliminate funding for the atomic arms projects.

Full Report [addsig]
axxxr
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Posted: 2004-06-11 06:14
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Watch the Trailer Here

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[ This Message was edited by: axxxr on 2004-06-11 05:20 ]
gelfen
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Posted: 2004-06-11 08:26
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ok, now i have a bit more time to get into it. i think i'll try to address the main points one at a time. just to declare my bias, i am nominally christian in faith but i have huge issues with organised religion. i flatter myself to think that i have no particular prejudices, except against individuals rather than groups.

Jesus might have been spreading peace,love but he was also spreading the message that his was the right path to god and anyone who did not accept his message was a non-believer Athiest and hence Evil so therefore could not be one gods people.Millions were who did not accept his message of so called Love and Peace were then beheaded,torturted,killed.Take the example of Spain.It was a Muslim nation for over 800 years until the bible bashing crusades invaded and Murdered,tortured,raped young women & children and forcefully converted a whole nation to your so called peaceful christain faith.What you see of Spain today should have been a Muslim State.


your comments here indicate that you do don't understand christianity, in the same way you say others don't understand islam. the original message of christ, and the way in which greedy bigots (mis)interpret it are two very different things. jesus never, ever, claimed that anyone was evil - with the possible exception of the devil, who by definition fits that description. he said certain people may not "enter the kingdom of heaven" but that's entirely different. his key teaching was tolerance and love for your fellow man, even those who do you wrong. this is a very high ideal for any one person to live up to, and so normal human nature reasserts itself with all it's greed and selfishness. i know from experience the same is true for many followers of islam.

i think every official church body has acknowledged its past sins, including the crusades. the thing to remember is that the crusades were in part driven by a secular concerns - primarily it was a good excuse for conquest - an in part by a misguided and superstitious belief that they were doing "god's will", much the same as bin laden and other extremists make similar claims with varying degrees of sincerity. a majority of the participants in the crusades couldn't actually read, so it's not like they could go and look it up for themselves. when the powerbrokers gave instruction, who were they to argue being uneducated and ignorant? the other thing with the crusades is that it was 800 years ago, so let go already. bleating about it now isn't going to change anything, and the argument "but they did it first" isn't convincing at the best of times. it's not an excuse to do the same, but an example to learn from and avoid repeating (especially for the victims, because they should know better).

Majority of the worlds christians today have completely lost all interest in there religion but does'nt mean deep down they are not loyal to it.Where as Muslims on the other hand have not changed and are closer to there faith as ever.

i disagree. i would say that western society in general has become more secular in nature, having learnt from the mistake of having essentially a ruling theocracy. those who have lost interest are no longer christians, but they remain loyal to their race, homeland, and way of life rather than to a specific religion. i can't really speculate on why muslim societies have rarely developed into more secular nations. it might be that they are mostly developing rather than developed nations, or it's the system of government which restricts change. i don't think it's much of a coincidence that perhaps the most secular muslim country, Turkey, is also one of the very few muslim democraticies.

i am well aware of the early muslim nations being centres of learning and culture, and i always wonder what happened. i'm sure it's still there somewhere, but you don't see it very much. i remember at uni that i was discussing with friends the lifecycle of religion. the theory was that every religion that has ever claimed to be the "one true faith" will, about 1500 years after it's inception, go through a phase of "smiting the unbeliever". leading up to that time they all distance themselves from the other faiths while growing in popularity, and only afterwards begin to reintegrate. it was an interesting discussion, which i think more or less holds true.

But this Islamophobia thats going on today is completely unjustified.Muslims are a peaceful race and peace and tolerance is constantly encouraged in the Quran.When i hear stories of a muslim women being attacked just for wearing a headscarf (hijaab) in Newyork & London of all places where society is supposed to be educated and civilised and moved on from that kind of religious prejudice.Then you say the west is more civilised.

i agree with you on this point, but i would like to offer a few comments. it seems today that a particular religion will only get publicity when it's proponents do something bad. christianity is only really ever brought up when some new sexual abuse scandal occurs. the only publicity islam gets is when extremists (who bastardize islam for their own agenda) perform some terrorist act. the difference is that a terrorist act is a lot more public, and people feal threatened for their lives. even so, the islamaphobia you mention is the result of a vocal minority spreading misinformationto start a panic among the herd rather than a majority opinion.

on a side note i have no issue with women who wear a hijab because they choose to. i have issue with the muslim nations, and even individual families, that force them to under threat of retribution. the reason many westerners assume it is a sign of oppression is because such devotion to your religion in everyday life is an alien concept to the typical westerner. i read once that the hijab was originally instituted by a mullah who raped his wife's sister after accidently seeing her naked. he blamed her for inciting the sin, and so forced all women in his camp to go about veiled so he wouldn't be tempted. i don't know how true that story is, but the book was written by an afghani woman. but, as i said, i'm pro-choice.

....go into one of the chat rooms how much hatred there is towards muslims,you will not find one room which shows hatred towards christians by muslims.Some of the more Fanatical muslims in the middle east do what they do out of desperation.If say for example one of the Muslim nations invaded Australia to liberate it from a tyrant John Howard and started killing,shooting and bombing innoccent people.I'm sure gelfen you would'nt stand around and watch the show....

i'm sure if you trawled the net you could find islamic hatred websites. there have been a few sites in australia quoted as saying that suicide bombers are heroes, that democracy and capitalism are the enemy (those articles have since been removed). i defend any individual's right to defend his home from an aggressor. however, since western societies are largely democratic we don't have tyrants. a fundamental part of democratic societies is the belief that every individual has the right to democratic government and the rights that go therewith. dictatorships (religious or otherwise) tend not to offer the same rights.

No country has the right to invade it for whatever reason

not even to free the oppressed? (e.g. Serbia, East Timor, WWII, etc.) even the Quran allows it.

"And why should you not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? - Men, women, and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You, one who will protect; and raise for us from You, one who will help.'" (The Holy Quran, 4:75)

The problem with Bush is he never went into Iraq to get rid of Saddam that was just a excuse to take control of the oil and to keep the Israel's happy! Everyone know that. Even americans i chat to on Paltalk who have served for the U.S army tell me that

i don't think anyone would deny that the oil forms a part of it. but there would be no war if there was no tyranny or oppression in Iraq to begin with. like any conflict, this war is politically motivated but i don't think you can deny that in the long term Iraq will probably be better off. i'm actually looking forward to seeing michael moore' movie. i think he is entertaining and has a point to make, but more often than not people try to over-simplify these debates into black and white, when there's really a whole world of grey out there. there may well be vague links between bush and bin laden, but they were well before any of the recent problems. alliances, attitudes and political reality constantly change. bush may not have gone in to free the people of iraq, but i'm sure some of them did.

It was illegle war through and through just for the fact they had a few WMD.Iraq had every right to have Nerve gas,Nuclear weapons whatever....

actually they didn't, by several UN resolutions originating from the first Gulf War. the UN should have been the ones to step in this time around too, but for whatever reason they declined. i think the current state of affairs has shown how ineffectual the UN really is, and it will be along time before anyone takes them seriously again. in the absence of UN intervention, someone was morally obliged to step in - even if we prefer it be someone other than the US. however, now the US have gone in a lot of terrorist groups have taken advantage of the chaos to peddle their own agendas. groups from surrounding nations are using iraq as a staging point for their own little conflicts, which does nothing to help the situation.

i agree with you about applying the rules equally to all, but the US was never going to go up against someone who they thought might actually pose some resistance (especially when there was "unfinished business" ).

a few last points i want to make:

i find it interesting how every argument against the west by muslims always talks about "the christians" and "the jews". for whatever reason they can't understand that we are NOT christian nations. religion has little, if anything, to do with the governance of a western capitalist society except in the realm of morals and ethics. western democracies are secular nations. they may be populated by christian or jewish individuals, but most people are closer to athiest or agnostic than any particular religion. the separation of powers between religion and state is legislated in every western democracy. iraq being a "muslim" nation has nothing to do with it. there is no "christian" or "jewish" vendetta. it is not about religion. it has always and forever been about politics.

what i really don't understand is this. christian and muslim all essentially worship the same god, with a few minor variations. the religions more or less follow the same moral code - peace, love, respect, helping others and so on. other than differences in dress code there's not much to distinguish them. so why can't we all learn to get along? i'm sure the answer involves greed, pride, and sheer bloody-mindedness, but we should be able to overcome those things. i suppose there's also an element of people fearing that which is different, and what they fear they hate, what they hate they destroy.

i read once an extract of a diary kept by an indonesian muslim where he spoke of all the wonderous things promised him in the afterlife if he was faithful to the teachings of islam. he then came to australia on holiday and saw that we, who barely follow any religion let alone islam (and hence were essentially "infidels"), had all the things he was told he had to wait for. it made me wonder whether the socioeconomic inequality between western and muslim nations was a source of discontent for extremists, but i would again say that politics (or rather, system of government) is the cause there. democracy lends itself to a free and open society (the kind the quran preaches) because it encourages debate and independent thought.

i look forward to your response

and i really recommend you read the Salam Pax interview.
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[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2004-06-11 07:28 ]
Sammy_boy
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Posted: 2004-06-11 12:08
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@Gelfen - phew, what a post!! I bet the wappers are having fun trying to read that!

I do agree with what you've said, however. A very balanced argument there. However, listening to one or two of these Christian short-wave radio stations does worry me - there seems to be a lot of people over the pond peddling the 'muslims must convert to christianity or be destroyed' line. The US may get to start a world war after all, after arriving late for the previous two!

How about some opinions from US members? Do you agree with what your countries' leaders are doing, that these wars/invasions are justified, or are you ashamed and embarrassed by all the warmongering being done? Let's hear from you!

I think if someone offered me a world where there was no religion whatsoever, where people lived to a moral code, not what some holy book commands them to do, and with common sense, I'd be there in a shot! Stop this planet, I wanna get off!!

Even if in the unlikely event of there being no religion in the world whatsoever, human nature's propensity towards violence means we'd find something else petty to fight about - e.g. hair colour, lifestyle choices, maybe even their choice of mobile phone brand....
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

anish
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Posted: 2004-06-11 13:15
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Well said Gelfen

@axxxr

I don’t want to get into an argument on Islam and get this thread locked as happened with Gelfen’s other thread. But let me correct some statements you made

Quote:
If you look deeper and study Islamic History you will find that Muslims have contributed much much more to the west than you have been lead to believe.for a start Mathamatics and Medicine was invented by muslims.



I don’t know where you got this facts when Islam was born only around 600 AD (Muhhamed’s life period was between 570 AD and 632 AD)

Medicine:

Hippocrates the father of modern medicine was born in in 460 BC

The Greeks were practising medicine 1000 years before the birth of Christ.
The Chinese medicine date back to 500 BC
The Indians were doing plastic surgery and cataract operations as early as 800 BC


Mathematics
Between 1000 B.C. and 1000 A.D. various treatises on mathematics were authored by Indian mathematicians in which were set forth for the first time, the concept of zero, the techniques of algebra and algorithm, square root and cube root.

Ahmes, the great Egyptian mathematician lived around 1600s BC

The Chinese mathematics history dates back to 1200 BC


Quote:
Take the example of Spain.It was a Muslim nation for over 800 years until the bible bashing crusades invaded and Murdered,tortured,raped young women & children and forcefully converted a whole nation to your so called peaceful christain faith



What you say about the Muslim invasion of India around 1000 AD and the rapes, murders and forced conversions?


Quote:
Jesus might have been spreading peace,love but he was also spreading the message that his was the right path to god and anyone who did not accept his message was a non-believer Athiest and hence Evil so therefore could not be one gods people.



So you certainly not believe in Jesus right? But don’t you know Quran calls him a prophet (Isa Nabi) and I think you have now done blasphemy and according to Islamic law you should be beheaded right? Also you did mention about the ‘so called God’ of Christians. Don’t you know Christians, and Muslims and Jews believe in the same god who created Adam and Eve and all the prophets from Abraham to Jesus? The only difference in these religions comes from the point Jesus comes into the picture, Jews still waiting for the son of god to come, Christians believe Jesus is the son of God, and Muslims believe Jesus was a beloved prophet of Allah. So now you have definitely done blasphemy and you are doomed aren’t you?
Knowledge is two fold. Knowing a subject or knowing where to find out about a subject. I rely on both... That is why I come here.
*Jojo*
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Posted: 2004-06-11 14:49
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WOW ! This thread is becoming more 'political' and made thru personal 'beliefs' . . . as everyone is entitled to ! 'just try to respect each other's opinions OK ! Tah (liban) . . .
Lynx69
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Posted: 2004-06-11 14:56
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On 2004-06-11 14:49:55, jojo51069 wrote:
WOW ! This thread is becoming more 'political' and made thru personal 'beliefs' . . . as everyone is entitled to ! 'just try to respect each other's opinions OK ! Tah (liban) . . .



Thats why i stopped posting here

>>*Wow 2100+ posts*<<
*Jojo*
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Posted: 2004-06-11 15:21
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@lynx69 - In a way, their posts really makes sense, specially the 'lengthy' ones ! Here, you can see who are the member's of esato who are really well-versed/rounded with the current and event past issues, not just merely 'hear-say' stories. I myself, is an avid fan of CNN and BBC. I watch those channels/shows almost on a daily basis, to keep me updated with the current events. Like for instance, in the recent passing away of US President Ronald Reagan, it was at CNN that I first saw the news! First, they were reporting about his failing health condition due to Alzheimer's Disease (which he has been diagnosed and suffering from for the past years), the next day I saw the report at CNN that President Reagan succumb to death. Reports comes really that fast!

[ This Message was edited by: jojo51069 on 2004-06-11 14:40 ]
Lynx69
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Posted: 2004-06-11 15:30
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Quote:

On 2004-06-11 15:21:51, jojo51069 wrote:
@lynx69 - In a way, their posts really makes sense, specially the 'lengthy' ones ! Here, you can see who are the member's of esato who are really well-versed/rounded with the current and event past issues, not just merely 'hear-say' stories. I myself, is an avid fan of CNN and BBC. I watched those channels/shows almost on a daily basis, to keep me updated with the current events. Like for instance in the recent passing away of US President Ronald Reagan, it was at CNN that I first saw the news! First, they were reporting about his failing health condition due to Alzheimer's Disease (which he has been diagnosed and suffering from for the past years), the next day I saw the report at CNN that President Reagan succumb to death. Reports comes really that fast!



I agree, and you get to know people better through these type of topics, you see what they are like and not what they know about mobiles.

>>*Wow 2100+ posts*<<
*Jojo*
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Posted: 2004-06-11 15:57
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If I can just 'sum' it up mate . . . As I have said it before, not all of our lives will primarily depend on celfones alone, there are much better things to be discussed here at this forum (my apologies here @laffen) - but it's TRUE! It was just so unfortunate that esato was made for SE fone fanatics! Maybe for Nokia lovers for some too - like me ???
Access the forum with a mobile phone via esato.mobi
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