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The All New Sony Ericsson Portfolio for 2008 |
gauravsali
Joined: Oct 14, 2006
Posts: 248
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Any more info on Patti and paris? | |
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S4k1s
Joined: Mar 09, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Sweden
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On 2008-04-24 17:57:14, my ninja wrote:
When will we see the use of SSD in flagship phones by SE? There are 16/32/64GB SSD's available at 1.8" form factor that would seem like a good fit for cellphones. Will we see an SE phone that has a 32/64GB 1.8" SSD this year? I ask on account of the current iPhone having 16GB any new phones should be at the very least 2x the capacity, because any sane person would assume that apple will be trucking a 32gb version of the iphone out sometime in the next few months so they can release it about a year after the first iteration. However SSD inclusion should not mean card reader exclusion.
SO GREAT to hear something about Shiho, thats exciting thanks Beta, and PK who stays in the shadows ... lets hope that it reclaims the standard of excellence for cameras in phones for SE.
lightening fast responses. LIGHTENING FAST
The iPhone got 16Gb NAND flash memory modules, not SSD drives. Don't mix them up because there is a big difference there.
But yes I agree that  should have phones with great on board memory and expandable memory. |
bodeh6
Joined: Dec 14, 2006
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I hope SE doesn't screw up Shiho like they did with the crappy cams ala the K850i, C902, and G900. All of those 5MP cameras are not worthy of the Cybershot branding. |
my ninja
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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my humble apologies ... but SSD utilize a NAND array (different depending on the company) for the actual storage in their drives. i was just saying SSD because i dont know how the mainboard in their phones is setup.
either incorporating eSATA or embedded NAND flash, they need to up the memory modules to be inline with this century. The internal storage should be greater than the removable storage. MicroSDHC is coming up on 16GB now, but your left with the option of having it, instead of forcing it on the consumer.
regardless of this itd be nice to not have to worry about purchasing a card or being able to copy a friends card without the hassle/tether of a computer. |
Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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On 2008-04-24 20:02:54, my ninja wrote:
my humble apologies ... but SSD utilize a NAND array (different depending on the company) for the actual storage in their drives. i was just saying SSD because i dont know how the mainboard in their phones is setup.
either incorporating eSATA or embedded NAND flash, they need to up the memory modules to be inline with this century. The internal storage should be greater than the removable storage. MicroSDHC is coming up on 16GB now, but your left with the option of having it, instead of forcing it on the consumer.
regardless of this itd be nice to not have to worry about purchasing a card or being able to copy a friends card without the hassle/tether of a computer.
SSD is not faster; its the throughput of the data to the SSD drives (eSata connection type II) is STILL slower than HDD. However IBM will have a better solution by years end - something to do with the way data is stored & archived. But SSD is for DESKTOPS/Laptops. As someone else clarified NAND is suitable but it needs to be updated.
BTW, the W960i and the upcoming w980i :Walkman: phones have what you're asking for ... Flash based memory. Although I agree on 'internal storage should be greater than the removable storage' you're not realizing that this INTERNAL memory method NEEDS to be tested before production begins (also leading to costs); but more importantly RAISES the cost of phones in the retail market. 8GB is STILL plenty and acceptable; most PC's are just now (past 1.1yrs) allowing for RAM to be that high (not servers they've had it for 2+yrs). MicroSD/M2 gives us the option to quickly swap out and have more RAM. Unless NAND (which is already in teh MicroSDHC/M2 formats or other removable memory for years) becomes faster for read/writes and the phone firmware is not mixed with the onboard 8GB(+) NAND Flash storage then I'd rather have the option to expand when available - and its getting VERY fast for higher expansion & its more cost effective for the end user. I hate to say it but when those 5TH gen iPods (80GB) came out it drove memory prices (desktops/laptops/flash based all incl) significantly higher because demand exceeded supply for a few mths.
Either way, Nokia, SE, Samsung, and Motorola are all part of a coalition to have a NEW memory format (omg yet a NEW standard & pin set) to allow for faster read/writes beyond what MicroSDHC/M2 is capable of. However, the phone File Browser code will need to be augmented to take advantage of the read/write speeds. So we'll see how this develops.
|AppleTV2|iPhone 12Mini 256GB|iPad Pro 256GB| Previously ...  K750|Z500|Z520|K700|K790i|K850i, :Ericsson: T18z|T28World|T36m x3|T68m (Ericsson, not the rebranded T68i). |
my ninja
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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cuz its acceptable today doesnt mean it will be tmw.
im not necessarily wanting something like this, at years end, but i would like them to look into internal storage that is significant.
id like for a smartphone to be a direct competitor to eeepc's and the like.
right now, they are taking baby steps, but if they realize that this is completely with in the realm of doable, then wed see some progress, but you ppl are WAY too concerned with costs ... the amount of money these companies has FAR out weighs your concerns, whether or not they can be PROFITABLE should be more relevant, even still they need to look into it now, im tired of my phone being 10 years behind PCs, its there for the taking, thats a HUGE market that needs to be tapped into ... w.e im "nobody" who has fantasies about what a company should do.
every 12-18 months id have a new product out that is that much better than the year before. instead of rehashing.
will we get a pic leak of shiho like paris  looks at m-1 |
jayce
Joined: May 19, 2004
Posts: 105
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The industry is working on two types of SSD drives - read biased and write biased.
Essentially read biased is pretty much what we already know today, whereas write biased drives have an amount of battery backed RAM sitting at the front end.
This really helps the write performance compared to traditional "flash" drives but of course at the moment real disks are much cheaper with greater capacity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive
All great stuff but do we really need SSD's in our phones?
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Dups!
Joined: Sep 24, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: GMT +2
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Prom1
I love ypur ideas about what SE should bring us in future.
SE's lost a lot if not all of their crowns- fomer kings of camera phones, former kings of music phones and former kings of high end phones (UIQ).
Basically they're no longer kings of innovation.
It's not what you do or even how you do it but in what state of mind you do it: Dups! 2009 |
Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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On 2008-04-24 22:00:29, my ninja wrote:
cuz its acceptable today doesnt mean it will be tmw.
im not necessarily wanting something like this, at years end, but i would like them to look into internal storage that is significant.
id like for a smartphone to be a direct competitor to eeepc's and the like.
right now, they are taking baby steps, but if they realize that this is completely with in the realm of doable, then wed see some progress, but you ppl are WAY too concerned with costs ... the amount of money these companies has FAR out weighs your concerns, whether or not they can be PROFITABLE should be more relevant, even still they need to look into it now, im tired of my phone being 10 years behind PCs, its there for the taking, thats a HUGE market that needs to be tapped into ... w.e im "nobody" who has fantasies about what a company should do.
every 12-18 months id have a new product out that is that much better than the year before. instead of rehashing.
will we get a pic leak of shiho like paris looks at m-1
The money a company has to MAKE just 1 or 2 products in a full lineup is NOT so much that you may think. Many of these phone companies have bank loans or Investor loans - which in day trading can be pulled out of the coffers significantly in short order. Now for a phone to be profitable, the sale price per Unit must exceed the cost price. So what is involved in costs.
Costs:
* Research & Design (the longest stage: THIS is where the COST can be Profitable stage. It doesn't get past this drawing board, conference room stage if its too costly).
* Chipsets (watch out for proprietary or intellectual patent usage)
* Radio's (very cheap; but varying designs for specific models still make them significant enough to mention).
* Case manufacturing (initially a new production line will cost significantly in upwards of 100's of thousands of dollars. You don't want another paint issue to occur like the w580i early production units suffered).
* NAND flash in large size is NOT a commonplace practice in the phone indusry. Can you take a guess how much 8GB of NAND costs in a batch of 1-5million??!! I cannot imagine but for 1-5million phone units of a specific model it'll be expensive probably more than a new video acceleration chip; who knows. Lets see how many phones. W980i, W900 (no longer in production), N81 8GB (no longer in production - the bulkey model with slider cover over teh keypad), Samsung still only makes models under 512MB-1GB considerably cheaper. My guess is maybe less than 10 models EVER produced with higher than 4GB of flash NAND for imbedded memory/ram.
*Advertisement (THE MOST expensive! Trade shows is NOT enough for advertisement; because phone pervs like us make up only a small 10% if that, of new phone sales. Its the masses that make this profitable. Sure trade shows is free advertisement, but phones on average take 2mths or longer to be released & shipping after announcement made official. Multiply this is varying worldwide markets, along with shipping costs -land, sea, or air frieght, and security - and campaigns in different languages (print, radio, TV, web).
* Returns! Yes you MUST figure return shipment batches. something that is always overlooked or forgotten.
* Coding! Yes coding for this new large NAND will need to be done for EACH model even with the family GUI. Also, testing for compatibility with your accessories, Alpha testing & BETA testing.
* TIME! The hardest value of a cost of a physical product (Phone, Car, Computer) is teh time to market. SE mentioned that more cash & time in R&D was being spent just at the beginning of last quarter and that renue results will be lower than expected. Well the news is 48% LOWER revenue! OUCH! It was expected but this shocks investors, considering what had recently happend to Motorola's mobile division & their stat of affairs.
* PC's will ALWAYS be AHEAD of phones! ALWAYS. Why? Keyboard input. Programming, Database needs, corporate needs, etc. Smartphones will remain Smartphones. Until the average "touch typist" can consistently type Faster on a smartphone, code the same way & debug the sameway (in Java, C++, C#, Unix, Linux) and not have issues with screen resolution or readability as they do today; we're not going to see a coder, corporate worker get rid of their desktop/laptop for GOOD. Also we'll need the FULL blown desktop applications to be available on the Smartphones - Office 2K7, full access to folder/file structure & extensions, Photoshop (even as a cloud service, its not going to happen in 10yrs), fully reliable FOTA status without loosing user data or settings or customization, data pricing models to be reasonable & easily consumable WORLDWIDE for ALL countries and developing markets. You get my meaning right? They've been saying smartphones will take over PC's for years, but they STILL cannot offer what PC's do. I'd like it to BE right thar with em but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
Great rebuttals though! 
Cheers.
|AppleTV2|iPhone 12Mini 256GB|iPad Pro 256GB| Previously ... K750|Z500|Z520|K700|K790i|K850i, :Ericsson: T18z|T28World|T36m x3|T68m (Ericsson, not the rebranded T68i). |
my ninja
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: > 500
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here are 2 articles from today:
DivX @ 120 fps: http://www.engadget.com/2008/[....]th-divx-rebranded-secret-shhh/
VGA Touch Screen: http://www.engadget.com/2008/[....]ng-to-sprint-and-looking-good/
i understand SSD is far off, as well as OLED so thats ok,
but cmon SE just aint trying hard enough. im well aware of the constraints involved with developing products and pursuing projects, but dont you think that 48% drop in revenue had somethin to do with the lackluster performance of their lineup? it just goes to prove the point im trying to make that you dont work from the bottom of the barrel up, its the WRONG philosophy for establishing a strong market presence.
i have a question would you ask a homeless person for a hand out or would you ask a middle class family or a wealthy estate ... ? putting time and R&D into lowend phones is retarded, those costs should be absorbed in researching and developing phones what will propel the brand, not drag it behind the competition.
think about this, if you spend $ on R&D on a lowend device your sacrificing funds at the top end, to develop phones that have been created already, that have already used R&D allocated from previous years. how hard is it to make a K700 into a K660 or some other lower end model, and just waterfall the tech THATS ALREADY DEVELOPED into lower models. if they are so strapped for cash they need to utilize what they have better. spend more up top less down below and let the tech ride its way down.
lowend vs high/midrange
KIA vs Ferrari
Daewoo vs BMW
Hyundai vs Honda
its a completely biased question but anyone want to venture a guess as to which generates more revenue. now i understand we have different scales working here but its just a ROUGH SIMPLE demonstration of what im trying to explain.
its funny to me because SE didnt introduce itself with lowend, they came in with that T68 and blew everyone away, it may not have been a uberhighend smart phone, but it should represent when the company decided to have a starting point, theyve drifted away from what drew their initial customers to them, and when you lose brand loyalty you become one of the fray, an "eh" away from losing a customer in the store. that lowend phone has nothing going for it against another other than the name on it, and when that name no longer means anything well, who cares ...
[ This Message was edited by: my ninja on 2008-04-25 00:10 ] |
Tigershark42
Joined: Dec 05, 2007
Posts: > 500
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My view is that there is far too much business and not enough innovation going on at SE. That will generate revenue, however, it doesnt shock us.
But if it shocks us, and has that wow factor to it exactly because of the innovation, thats when the business suddenly feels a huge boost. |
JAGUY85
Joined: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Jamaica
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Wow, it's getting busy in here. And so many epistle type responses. LOL.
My History: T310.K700>K750>W810>K800>W850>K800>K810>P1>X10a>? S. B. R. Jr. |
Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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On 2008-04-25 00:45:09, my ninja wrote:
DivX @ 120 fps:
Its not their first phone. BUt I'll get to how they where able to invest & LICENCE this codec and pay for advertisement/co-branding.
On 2008-04-25 00:45:09, my ninja wrote:
but cmon SE just aint trying hard enough. im well aware of the constraints involved with developing products and pursuing projects, but dont you think that 48% drop in revenue had somethin to do with the lackluster performance of their lineup? it just goes to prove the point im trying to make that you dont work from the bottom of the barrel up, its the WRONG philosophy for establishing a strong market presence.
I totally agree that it was lackluster performance but not the same place you've stated. SE was going NUTS in sales, pure performance up until the 2nd quarter of 2007. Their lineup was very diverse, but becoming stagnant and refreshes of all flagships of EACH tier was getting long in the tooth: K800, W950, P990, M600 (was scrapt), z520 to z710, z600, & w300 ALL were over 10mths OLD. They needed to replace these and VERY fast!
On 2008-04-25 00:45:09, my ninja wrote:
i have a question would you ask a homeless person for a hand out or would you ask a middle class family or a wealthy estate ... ? putting time and R&D into lowend phones is retarded, those costs should be absorbed in researching and developing phones what will propel the brand, not drag it behind the competition.
what?! I'm not seeing this analogy the same way, but I put it to you in reverse. Would you rather GIVE a handout to a homeless person or to a middle class family person each day for a month?! A middle class person is going to haggle you and most likely convince you for more of a handout even to the point of embarrasing you in front of your peers. This happend to Motorola and an investor (their LARGEST) FORCED changes in the executive management due to pending lawsuits that were VERY valid, and he even got his selection of Management of the board & of the mobile division - non executive chairman of the board. My point is that in the European & North American markets the mid tier phone markets are just reaching saturation level, while the low end is already spoken for and they ONLY upgrade when they invoke CHURN or non-warranty covered failure or when their contract is up and they RENEW. The amount of ppl that can just barely afford a low-tier phone to say a mid-tier in Europe & North America PALES in comparison to those in emerging markets: South America, East Indies(Pakistan, UAE, China, Phillipeans, Cambodia, India, etc) In India alone there are literally almost 1Billion ppl ready to buy a phone at a reasonable price according to their hard earned dollars. They work hard and SO many hours per day they're barely HOME to pick up a phone call. ALL companies start off making phones at the LOW end and work to the top. SE forgot this for so long and sales was great for a few years but not sustainable.
On 2008-04-25 00:45:09, my ninja wrote:
think about this, if you spend $ on R&D on a lowend device your sacrificing funds at the top end, to develop phones that have been created already, that have already used R&D allocated from previous years. how hard is it to make a K700 into a K660 or some other lower end model, and just waterfall the tech THATS ALREADY DEVELOPED into lower models. if they are so strapped for cash they need to utilize what they have better. spend more up top less down below and let the tech ride its way down.
Ok remember how I mentioned that their lineup was becoming stagnant? The P990 was THE most important, but they didn't want to waste cash on R&D and rush it out the door, they remained ignorant and instead decided to do the SAME formula as before, split the lineup of the top-tier phone in the portfolio (they had other plans for a NEW top-tier = Xperia X1). P1i was the truth to that philosphy of yours or part of it USE existing hardware for lower priced/tier models and use R&D for the Top-Tier models:
* P1i is basically the P990 in a new shell, without the flip keyboard, and with a better camera (from the K800i), and more ROM+RAM space! The cpu, UIQ version is ALL pretty much the SAME. Guess where SE spent the time & R&D on the upgrade for the P990i?! Thats right it was the W960i a SOLID phone! Heck its got the SSD/NAND flash memory you've been asking for.
* z750i a failure due to market acceptance for providers & differentiation between the OLDER z600 was SCRAPT! A major marketing mistake (that AT&T his half assed about pulling from their sales channel); remedied NICELY by BOTH the z770i & z780a - but here again is a stupid marketing decision, another couple of thousands or hundred thousands of dollars to have the EXACT same phone with different casings & placement on the motherboard for the FastPort. Why have a single band UMTS HSDPA device yet use a different case same thickness and better appeal (arguably) for the same specs yet have Tri-band UMTS/HSDPA !?! Waist of money to differentiate here.
* Now to affect mid-tier & top-tier phone lineup as you suggested, the A1 platform was getting long in the tooth and SE focused TOO much on just the European UMTS bands while barely giving out EDGE quadband phones, something that Motorola & Nokia where KILLING them on. Thus the dawn of the A2 platform - something that Ericsson has had for a LONG LONG time and been licensing out to Samsung and another manufacturer that I cannot recall presently. Results where minimal R&D yet fresh new lineup with potential worldwide sales and still allow for market segmentation:
* K850i worldwide phone for Cybershot (Although a dissapointment to fans, SE made CASH hand over FIST!)
* W910i Pure European workhorse for :Walkman: lineup!
* W890i Another upgrade for the :Walkman: lineup & the W880i refresh, nicely done and its SELLING! Mistake imo: they didn't include Triband HSDPA in this beautiful metal case phone.
* W760i A MAJOR upgrade for the :Walkman: lineup. It not only replaces the w580i which was a HUGE worldwide success (after initial keypad fiasco), it also appeals to the youth market that the W600/S600 appealed to LONG LONG ago. This includes aGPS (which the previous phones in this list LACK).
* z780i has what the w760i has but also in a slim clamshell form-factor. Its Triband HSDPA, aGPS, 2MP Camera with Geotagging, and its slim and fashionable for BOTH sexes not just the females (mostly like the Z750i & z600 does). SE screwed AT&T with the Z750i and they know it - BOTH of them. If SE doesn't offer AT&T the Z780a as a replacement at slightly adjusted contract pricing, it'll make it harder for AT&T to agree into contract for FURTHER phones ... and AT&T is the LARGEST HSDPA/GSM/EDGE provider across the USA and they already been favoring Samsung & LG of late. They've also already pulled the K850i at the last minute - billboards and store front posters and stands where already sent yet informed NOT to setup in stores DURING stock already on route!
* G700/900 - To me this is to replace the M600 model and appeal more to those in Europe/Asia. Big mistake not to have Triband UMTS HSDPA as it would've appealed more to those of us in N./S. Americas as well.
If you noticed, ALL these phones in my list above are TOP TIER phones! SE is doing EXACTLY what you've stated. Sure they worked on low end but its to boost their profit margin per unit sales. Low end phones cost less to R&D, Manufacture, and ship then top/mid-tier phones; thus higher profit margins. Of course their is also have the upcoming W980i top-tier clamshell as well!
BTW, has you know is a colloboration of 2 phone companies (one of which also R&D & manufacturers switches, BST's, Nodes, and cellular towers & technologies). Because of this the T68i was a smart decision to announce that partnership - they NEEDED a big bang and there was no R&D needed! The T68i model is the same phone that Ericsson R&D and began shipping just 4mths prior ... called the T68m. Their 2nd phone was mid-tier and co announced with a LOW tier phone, the T200/300 - that blue greyscale phone; also with call buttons .
Cheers.
|AppleTV2|iPhone 12Mini 256GB|iPad Pro 256GB| Previously ... K750|Z500|Z520|K700|K790i|K850i, :Ericsson: T18z|T28World|T36m x3|T68m (Ericsson, not the rebranded T68i). |
clauf
Joined: Jun 17, 2007
Posts: > 500
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On 2008-04-24 15:38:19, my ninja wrote:
when apple continues to produce shitty mp3 players, and dominate the market, what do you think that does to the rest of the market, instead of aiming higher, we have this glut of mediocrity, people aim for the top while in this instance its the middle ground. same philosophy over at SE.
I'm starting to wonder if you have a reading problem. I have said countless times I do not fully agree with Sony Ericsson's business practices and tactics *SEE PAGE 539.* I would love to see them adding innovation into their phones like they have many years ago; which is the sole reason I stuck to Sony Ericsson for my entire life [I haven't had too many phones btw]. However, I don't mind them producing more low-end models in which they don't have too many.
On 2008-04-24 15:38:19, my ninja wrote:
please refrain from poking fun at my english writing skills, i was courteous enough to look past it, as the only reason i said something was that it seemed as though what i intended to convey had not been received. based upon your response i could see that, but i could also see that you dont write english as a main language, so i was hoping to bypass that in an extra explanation. i can write fine as ive been published before however this is an informal message board im not going to have thesis level grammar ... time consuming.
And does simply reading my forum posts mean you have the right to judge my English? That's what you've been doing for the past bit. English is not my first language but is my primary language. I understood every bit of what you've saying; I'm not an idiot.
I wasn't the one who started pointing out mistakes in one's English. I wonder who started it first? hmmm... But, I was the one who said you had "no knowledge in economics" and I appologize for that; I was simply frustrated at the time.
On 2008-04-24 15:38:19, my ninja wrote:
and consumers DO suffer if, based on company history a level of quality is expected especially at certain price points, no one wants to have a squeaky door hinge on there $400 purchase, thats just insane ... as far as it being consumer choice, sure ... but an expectation comes with all purchases having faulty housings is not something i should have to worry about, regardless of my choice. [/quote]
I'm not directing this question to you, but how many Sony Ericsson phones really have housing issues. I know W580 & S500 was a big one, but what other ones are there?
~~~
To everyone else, I'm sorry for having such a dispute on the forums. Anyway, back to phone business, does anyone know when Sony Ericsson will be releasing huge updates in firmware?
[ This Message was edited by: clauf on 2008-04-25 05:56 ]
[ This Message was edited by: clauf on 2008-04-25 05:57 ]
[ This Message was edited by: clauf on 2008-04-25 06:32 ] |
Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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Off topic warning for brief highlight:
On 2008-04-25 06:55:08, clauf wrote:
(Edited for isolation & clarification)
[This Message was edited by: clauf on 2008-04-25 1:15AM]
And does simply reading my forum posts mean you have the right to judge my English? That's what you've been doing for the past bit. English is not my first language but is my primary language. I understood every bit of what you've been trying to say; I'm not an idiot.
~~~ (Edited again; same reason)
To everyone else, I'm sorry for having such a dispute on the forums. Anyway, back to phone business, does anyone know when Sony Ericsson will be releasing huge updates in firmware?
[ This Message was edited by: clauf on 2008-04-25 05:56 ]
[ This Message was edited by: clauf on 2008-04-25 05:57 ]
[This Message was edited by: clauf on 2008-04-25 1:15AM EST]
@clauf,
Its takes EXTREME courage for ANYONE to learn another language other than their mother tongue, and even more to make it their primary (either through work, relocation, or passion). Nobody has the right to insult or judge someone's weakness of their mastery of another language not their own - however helping to correct minor mistakes shouldn't be perceived as hostile. I know I've done this myself here and on other forums, trying to be as gentle as possible. Just remember lack of mastering another language is NOT a sign for lack of intelligence; simply the attempt to try another language & bravery of practicing it THAT is intelligence, my friend - keep at it.
Also it takes a special person to admit when they're wrong EVEN if they're not the first in being so and only in retaliation. Recognizing when yourself is wrong is one thing, apoligizing for it ... THAT is special. Glad you're a member on these forums!
Back to the rumors, insightful posts, and helpful hints .... speaking of which where are they at?! (thats not proper english or grammar but its fitting )
_________________
 T18z|T39m twice loveless|:SE: K750|W810| BB Pearl|K790a|K850i. I 5MP & auto focus. I Tri-band HSDPA.
[ This Message was edited by: Prom1 on 2008-04-25 06:16 ] | |
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Posted: 2008-04-24 19:18
K750|Z500|Z520|K700|K790i|K850i, :Ericsson: T18z|T28World|T36m x3|T68m (Ericsson, not the rebranded 
