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so who is religous here? |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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@amnesia
Well it makes sense I suppose since Islam came after Christianity. Christians learn about the Old Testament and the Jewish traditions, but obviously their beliefs stop with the New Testament. Islam, coming later, has both of those to build upon as well as the Quoraan.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC | |
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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From: The Ummah
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Quote:
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On 2005-07-30 22:31:30, scotsboyuk wrote:
What do you believe will happen to you, if anyhting, when you die?
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This page is a presentation of the Quranic input on the death of the believers. All statements on this page are supported by clear Quranic verses.
When the Jews plotted and succeeded in getting Jesus killed they said that if he was truly the Messiah God would have saved him!
The Quran confirms that the mere fact that messengers and prophets were killed by the hands of the disbelievers, this does not mean that they were not genuine messengers of God:
"Those who have rejected God's revelations, and killed the prophets unjustly, and killed those who advocated justice among the people, promise them a painful retribution."3:21
"Say, "Why then did you kill God's prophets, if you were believers?" 2:91
God raised the soul of Jesus before his enemies could torture and crucify him. In actual fact what they crucified was a soulless body.
"Thus, God said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and saving you from the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection." 3:55
The words "raising you to Me" are mentioned before the words "and saving you from the disbelievers". This confirms the correct sequence of events; when the disbelievers tortured and crucified Jesus, his soul had already been raised.
Once again this is confirmed with the Quranic words:
"And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him-they were made to think that they did."4:157
Compare this to a person in a coma for few days before he is declared dead. For the duration of the coma his physical organs (heart, blook circulation, etc) may still be functioning, but his soul has departed. When we sleep God takes our souls, then our souls are returned to us when we wake up. Consequently, the one who is in a coma and then dies without ever waking up has in fact been dead from the moment he slipped into the coma.
"He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done." 6:60
We also read in the Quran:
"God puts the souls to death when the end of their life comes, and also at the time of sleep. Thus, He takes some back during their sleep, while others are allowed to continue living until the end of their predetermined interim. This should provide lessons for people who reflect." 39:42
There is strong evidence in the Quran to suggest that the example given for the death of Jesus is also applicable to the death of all genuine believers.
The fate of all genuine believers who die in tragic circumstances (e.g. fire, drowning, air disasters, etc) is not any different from the manner in which the life of Jesus was ended on earth.
God takes their souls just before the actual accident happens so that they do not suffer the pains of death. There are a number of Quranic verses which confirm this truth.
First it is necessary to point out that the Quran talks about two deaths, the first death took place before we were brought into this world, when we failed to make a stand with God's absolute authority.
For more info on this subject please go to:
Why we are here
After we were all put through the first death we were born into this world, the fact that we were put to death before we were born into this world is confirmed in the following verse:
"Most exalted is the One in whose hands is all kingship, and He is Omnipotent. The One who created death and life for the purpose of distinguishing those among you who would do better. He is the Almighty, the Forgiving." 67:1-2
Note how the creation of "death" is mentioned before the creation of "life".
After the initial death, the righteous do not die. Instead, they go straight to heaven after their life on earth comes to an end.
"Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of God are dead; they are alive at their Lord, being provided for." 3:169
"Do not say about those who are killed in the cause of God, "They are dead." For they are alive, but you do not perceive." 2:154
"They (the believers) do not taste death, beyond the first death, and God spares them the retribution of Hell." 44:56
"(At the time of his death) he was told, "Enter Paradise." He said, "Oh, I wish my people knew. That my Lord has forgiven me, and made me honorable." 36:26-27
All the above verses confirm that the righteous do not die, when their lives on this earth come to the predetermined end, the angel of death simply invites them to leave their earthly bodies and move on to Heaven.
"The angels terminate their lives in a state of righteousness, saying, "Peace be upon you. Enter Paradise (now) as a reward for your works." 16:32
We also read in 89:27-30 that God invites the believers' souls: "Enter My Paradise."
On the other hand, the disbelievers know at the moment of death that they are destined for Hell. The angels beat them on the faces and rear ends (8:50 & 47:27), order them to evict their souls (6:93), then "snatch their souls"79:1
In contrast to the believers who only taste the first death, the disbelievers go through two deaths (2:28 & 40:11). They will be put to death - a state of nothingness during which they see hell day and night in a continuous nightmare that lasts until the Day of Judgment (40:46).
As far as common knowledge is concerned, all people die! However, people do not realize that the righteous simply leave their bodies, and move on to Paradise.
"They are rejoicing in God's grace, and they have good news for their comrades who have not joined them yet (they still live on earth), that they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve." 3:170
The significance of this verse is truly great. We read that while we still live here on earth, there are the righteous who are already in heaven rejoicing in God's Grace, and waiting for the rest of the believers to join them.
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God, being The Most Merciful, would not allow the righteous to suffer the pains of death, but the wicked ones do:
"Do those who work evil expect that we will treat them in the same manner as those who believe and lead a righteous life? Can their life and their death be the same? Wrong indeed is their judgment." 45:21
To conclude, after the first death, the believers do not die, while the disbelievers do actually die and suffer the death process. The believers do not go through death, their souls are raised to God just before the actual moment of physical death. In other words, a believer who dies in car accident for example, will have his soul raised just before the accident occurs. This is the way the soul of Jesus was raised and as a result the disbelievers thought that they killed and crucified Jesus but they never did.
"And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him-they were made to think that they did." 4:157
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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From the Tao Te Ching:
Death
Quote:
| Men flow into life, and ebb into death.
Some are filled with life;
Some are empty with death;
Some hold fast to life, and thereby perish,
For life is an abstraction.
Those who are filled with life
Need not fear tigers and rhinos in the wilds,
Nor wear armour and shields in battle;
The rhinoceros finds no place in them for its horn,
The tiger no place for its claw,
The soldier no place for a weapon,
For death finds no place in them. |
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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On 2005-07-31 15:27:50, amnesia wrote:
Again, I think the specifics are those with not faith in God or something that represents God and the Jews and those who worship the devil etc... |
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why Jews? 
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On 2005-07-31 21:38:23, PeterKay wrote:
The words "raising you to Me" are mentioned before the words "and saving you from the disbelievers". This confirms the correct sequence of events; when the disbelievers tortured and crucified Jesus, his soul had already been raised. |
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that could also be interpreted as pure semantics. imho it suggests the sequence of events, depending on how literally you wish to take your interpretation (damn my questioning, secular-educated mind  )
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On 2005-07-31 21:38:23, PeterKay wrote:
God takes their souls just before the actual accident happens so that they do not suffer the pains of death. There are a number of Quranic verses which confirm this truth. |
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i’m curious - how is this reconciled with medical proofs which show that a person in a coma or unconscious will still experience and react to pain, even if they have no memory of it once they wake up? (personally i think that may be related to the mind’s ability to “forget” pain, whereby if you break a limb you remember that it hurt but not how much it hurt).
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On 2005-07-31 21:38:23, PeterKay wrote:
"Do those who work evil expect that we will treat them in the same manner as those who believe and lead a righteous life? Can their life and their death be the same? Wrong indeed is their judgment." 45:21 |
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i’m just full of impertinent questions today
is it possible to be righteous without being muslim? for instance, if a person lived a wholesome, moral, honest, loving and charitable life would they still be eligible to enter paradise (eventually) if they were:
christian?
jewish?
agnostic?
atheist?
homosexual?
scientologist?
i suppose i’m just curious about where the line is drawn, since you can be any of those without "working evil" (i'm not 100% on the scientologist though  ). in your view would allah/god specifically prohibit someone entry to paradise because they were a good person who merely exercised their "god-given" free will?
i hope you don't think i'm being rude, i'm just trying to understand how your faith interprets certain aspects of life and society.
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02
Joined: Sep 24, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: UK Birmingham
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@gelfen
Bein wholesome, moral, honest, loving and charitable are too part of Islam! It states in the Quran. However not believing in theres only one God Allah and the last messenger of God is Mohammad, it doesnt really cut to be in paradise that God Allah created for us.. it just doesnt cut it... Even ur born non-Islam... u cant blame that its not fair... God given u Brain to think, Legs to walk and explore, Eyes to see the truft and hands to hold to that truft.... u got years to think about Islam and its ways... this is ur chance...
A person who is born non-Islam and converted to Islam is much much more lucky, than a person born Islam.. this is because they taken the harder path to Islam.. and they worked and believe with their hearts as they realises the truft... the day they converted Islam is the day they reborn to a new.. like a baby.. and the sins done b4 will be forgiven.. However! One converts because of Allah... Not because of the forgiven sins, family, friends, money, ur future wife/hubby is an Islam so u converted Islam... etc...it doesnt work that way.
Its from the heart...
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@O2
What about people who convert to other religions from Islam?
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
boto43
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
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From: Trnava-Nitra,Pardubice CSSR
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On 2005-08-01 14:49:51, scotsboyuk wrote:
@O2
What about people who convert to other religions from Islam?
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Hm,good and interesting question
think they don't suppose with convertion in opposite way 
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[ This Message was edited by: boto43 on 2005-08-01 14:00 ] |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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From: The Ummah
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-01 14:49:51, scotsboyuk wrote:
@O2
What about people who convert to other religions from Islam?
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This has happened and is a good question why, only they who convert can answer it. Why someone would but want to leave a pure and beautiful religion is beyond my knowledge, maybe they do not know the religion firmly enough and may only be called muslims by name and not by action! They will realise their loss when the eyes of this world will close and the eyes of the hearafter will open.
Verses 44 and 45 from Chapter 7 in the Holy Quran states:
The Companions of the Garden will call out to the Companions of the Fire: "We have indeed found the promises of our Lord to us true: Have you also found Your Lord's promises true?" They shall say, "Yes"; but a crier shall proclaim between them: "The curse of Allah (God) is on the wrong-doers.
Those who would hinder (men) from the path of Allah and would seek in it something crooked: they were those who denied the Hereafter.
Verses 50 to 53 mention the following facts:
The Companions of the Fire will call to the Companions of the Garden: "Pour down to us water or anything that Allah doth provide for your sustenance." They will say: "Both these things hath Allah (God) forbidden to those who rejected Him."
"Such as took their religion to be mere amusement and play, and were deceived by the life of the world." That day shall We forget them as they forgot the meeting of this day of theirs, and as they were wont to reject Our signs.
For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
May Almighty save us all from the punishment in the hearafter - Aameen.
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02
Joined: Sep 24, 2004
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From: UK Birmingham
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@scotsboyuk
oooo....... thats very Very scary... i cant even think of it...
The things is.... i cant even think of anything to convert to other religion... Islam to me is like perfect in very way... everytime you want to complain about this.. or that.. there will be something to back it up and proof that it is right... Reason i see Islam is the most reasonable religion and im believing in it since born is because, i see there is something not right in that religion.. or this religion... i can tell u now what i think is not right about certain religion.. but its best for you to realise it by urself... and not causing harm or rudeness to others..
However back to ur question... what happen to an Islam who converted to other religion... sure this things happen... but its the minority group of people.. i dont even know anyone who converted.. but like i said b4.. this life is a chance, you got years to find the truft.. if he converts back to Islam then he realises he made a Big mistake.. if he doesnt then he belong to group of non-muslim, and if im not wrong worse then bein a non-muslim..
its scary tho..
Never Give Up! |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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@O2
What does Islam say would happen to someone who leaves Islam after death? PeterKay made mention of being denied the Hereafter.
I would also be interested to know what you think is not right about Taoism.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-01 14:38:48, 02 wrote:
@gelfen
Bein wholesome, moral, honest, loving and charitable are too part of Islam! |
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i know that!  what i meant was, what if a non-muslim conformed to all the requirements of being a good muslim except for following islam? i offered those examples as discussion points. also, what about a person who lived their entire life in ignorance of islam? admittedly that would be harder now, but still possible. i for one have learned more about islam in this thread than in my entire life beforehand.
Quote:
| A person who is born non-Islam and converted to Islam is much much more lucky, than a person born Islam.. this is because they taken the harder path to Islam.. and they worked and believe with their hearts as they realises the truft... the day they converted Islam is the day they reborn to a new.. like a baby.. and the sins done b4 will be forgiven.. However! One converts because of Allah... Not because of the forgiven sins, family, friends, money, ur future wife/hubby is an Islam so u converted Islam... etc...it doesnt work that way.
Its from the heart... |
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this is exactly the same in christian faith. as far as i can see, the only substantive difference between islam and christianity does not relate to god, but to the number and relative importance of his earthly (human) representatives.
i think that if a muslim were to convert it would most likely be to marry a non-muslim, or to join a non-monotheistic religion (e.g. buddhism, taoism) or even to become agnostic or atheist.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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@gelfen
Which religious path do you follow?
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
amnesia
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
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@gelfen, I'd assume it would be impossible to follow all the rules of Islam without being a Muslim.
Mainly because there are some things taught or required that a normal person wouldn't necessarily do.
E.g. pay tax to the poor.
But lets assume he does everything that God asks, because he wants to or thought of it on his own. Wouldn't said person have searched for the religion that suited his beliefs? Lets say he did but didn't want to be labelled, thats fine as long as he still believes in God. But he's still going to be missing one crucial thing, he wont be able to answer Judgement days questions. E.g. Who do you believe is the last messenger of God, and he will not have a Quraan in his hand to pass on to be judged whether he can go into heaven or hell.
As I believe, that person will ultimately go into heaven, IF he did the right things BUT did not fully understand the religion of Islam.
If that person did, and still refused it however, then it could be that his time will be spent in hell but I'm not sure of this.
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scotsboyuk
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@amnesia
A non-Muslim can give to the poor.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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that's pretty much where i was going. even if you don't donate to charity you still give to the poor because you pay tax to the government, of which a portion will go to unemployment, pension and disability (etc.) benefits for those who can't afford to live without assistance. i suppose it would depend on whether you were thinking about that at the time or whether you merely write them off as "dole bludgers".
i guess if god/allah is meant to forgive all your sins then wouldn't s/he logically forgive the sin of not believing in him/her? otherwise the distinction becomes rather arbitrary unless even after death the individual still remains unrepentant. i suppose what i'm getting at is that i couldn't believe in a god who would so arbitrarily punish a person because of their ignorance.
@scots: i'm nominally a protestant christian, but my personal philosophy is much more complicated than that. i believe in god, but i'm open to convincing on what the exact nature of god is - be it either as the traditional all powerful single being or the manifestation of a "conscious" universe.
i personally believe that the true nature of god is unknown and unknowable to humankind, at least in this particular incarnation/dimension/reality/insert idiom of choice here. as a consequence nearly all religious teaching is a flawed human interpretation of divine concept, which while probably mostly correct is also swayed by the politics and prejudices of both the author(s), their contemporary culture, and the teachers of that faith. i think that almost without exception the various "prophets" had a better personal understanding of what was going on, but that their ability to explain it was limited by the lesser understanding of their audience and those who wrote down their teachings.
i am also not convinced that any one religion is right to the exclusion of all others, since they are almost all a human attempt to understand the greater order of things - and an outlet for the human need to believe in something greater than ourselves. christianity, islam and judaism are manifestations of that reach for understanding which happen to be similar, since they more or less evolved out of each other. however, i see no reason why other religions can't be equally valid in that respect. for instance, depending on your definition, it could be argued that "the tao" and "god" are one and the same, or merely aspects of the one over-reaching "force", but that the conceptualisation of "the tao" was more appropriate to the cultural development of the target audience. while the former three use a big stick approach to enforce a moral code, it seems that taoism employs a minimalist action philosophy which achieves a similar outcome, since to do evil logically requires more effort than to do good (i also make a distinction between doing good and combating evil). additionally, there are studies which indicate that for devout followers of a particular faith prayer can correspond to a state of meditation, which is more often associated with eastern religions.
i also believe that acceptance and understanding of many religions allows one to acknowledge the many aspects of god, even if you never get a complete picture. the concept of "god" is too big to define in words, so multiple viewpoints are needed to add to your understanding.
"...to get back to the roots of all...religions, past the doctrines to the core of each belief system to find out what they have in common; and they have alot more in common than you think. It's just when politics and money and nationalism get in the way that things get a little messed up.
(if you can spot where that quote comes from then you really are a geek )
and that is a kind of outline, but doesn't really cover half of it
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Posted: 2005-07-31 15:37
