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Gizmodo verdict on dumbphones and the W995. |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
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I can imagine the heated scenes in the Apple boardroom now.
"What do you mean, jj03 said no?!"
The 3G S will doubtless be landfill in the morning.
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2009-06-09 15:27 ] | |
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TeknoBoi90
Joined: Mar 08, 2008
Posts: 164
From: Piemonte, Italy
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The iPhone could have a great UI and be so cool but when they announced the new 3GS version with highlight features MMS support, 3MP camera and video recording it made me laugh a bit. Anyway we have to say that they can sell their product damnly well... and the apps are so good too...
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NightBlade
Joined: Jul 29, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: Nessebar, Bulgaria
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On 2009-06-09 18:30:20, TeknoBoi90 wrote:
The iPhone could have a great UI and be so cool but when they announced the new 3GS version with highlight features MMS support, 3MP camera and video recording it made me laugh a bit.
Makes you wonder whether you've missed the part when they talked about the alarm clock feature. 
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se_love
Joined: Nov 12, 2008
Posts: > 500
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On 2009-06-09 18:32:32, NightBlade wrote:
On 2009-06-09 18:30:20, TeknoBoi90 wrote:
The iPhone could have a great UI and be so cool but when they announced the new 3GS version with highlight features MMS support, 3MP camera and video recording it made me laugh a bit.
Makes you wonder whether you've missed the part when they talked about the alarm clock feature.
Whoa an alarm?! Must. Stop. Compelling. Thought. Of. Buying! Seriously though the only good thing out of it is the software. Otherwise its so, so, 2006. |
iksplusipsilon
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 303
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I wouldn't bother reading Gizmodo if they were the last tech site on Earth. Too much Apple-therapy...
This message was posted from a 6300 |
gtr83
Joined: Sep 27, 2008
Posts: > 500
From: Indonesia
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@Boinng
As much as I respect you (and Apple), we have to admit that the 3GS doesn't really bring anything new to the table... |
synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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On 2009-06-08 16:55:22, Boinng wrote:
How many existing loyal customers does SE have to alienate these days? Not enough, certainly.
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2009-06-08 16:04 ]
Oh, only about 5-6 times that Apple has for the fruitphone.
It makes no sense in asking SE or Nokia to change their UI just because Apple did something. SE and Nokia have millions of customers who stick to the brand because of their familiarity with the device. (Partly the reason why i don't see too many long term Samsung or LG users around. They keep changing their UI every now and then and the sales they get are purely due to excellent contract deals and superior hardware. Again, not a bad strategy for now, but who knows how it will work out in the long term?). It's only been a few years since Apple came up with this UI. How can you say without a shadow of a doubt that people would still love it 5 years down the line? There are lots of people who still prefer the quick navigation offered by numpad shortcuts or the convenience that a proper status screen offers (Which every true smartphone has). Who knows? The iPhone could be the next RAZR, even.
We use both OS X and Windows at work for professional CG use and let me tell you, beneath all that eye candy, OS X really makes life hard when it comes to getting shit done. Even for programs for which we have licenses for both platforms, we find ourselves using the Windows one more because it is just more productive. That's not a personal opinion, but the combined opinion of an entire design house headed by a die hard Apple fan, no less.
That opinion pretty much sums up the iPhone UI too, IMO.
Jesus Diaz (The author of that article) has those opinions simply because of a lack of familiarity with the platforms. the A200 in the W995 is a LOT different from the T68i he used all the way back, just like how Vista is a lot different from Windows 95, even though they have a start button and similar icons on the desktop. Also because he considers the dumbphones expensive, which they are not on a contract. The iPhone is horribly expensive SIM free and one REALLY needs to think twice before buying one that way. |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
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On 2009-06-10 04:54:42, synn wrote:
Oh, only about 5-6 times that Apple has for the fruitphone.
Did you make that figure up, or research it? If it's true, that's actually pretty damning for SE. They're a long established manufacturer of a huge range of phones desiged for every pocket... Apple make one very expensive premium device, launched only two years ago. Are their sales really as much as a fifth of SE's already? Imagine what would happen if they sold more than one phone...
It makes no sense in asking SE or Nokia to change their UI just because Apple did something.
So how about changing their UI because their market share is falling, brand loyalty is dissapearing, and they desperately need to reconnect with their customers?
Put it this way, we all know that SE phones beat products like the iPhone on many features - better camera, better bluetooth, yada yada, they tick all the boxes, and yet they're losing sales, and not just to Apple but to other more progressive brands like Samsung and LG as well. So what is it that SE need to do better, if not the one thing which doesn't get improved and uprated every year/model/iteration - the UI?
SE and Nokia have millions of customers who stick to the brand because of their familiarity with the device.
So why is SE making a massive loss? Why is their market share falling?
(Partly the reason why i don't see too many long term Samsung or LG users around. They keep changing their UI every now and then and the sales they get are purely due to excellent contract deals and superior hardware. Again, not a bad strategy for now, but who knows how it will work out in the long term?).
Come now - it's a fact that LG and Samsung haven't had great UIs in the past, they've generally been inferior versions of SE's/Nokias since they've both had a practice of copying the market leaders. These days they're not copying SE or Nokia anymore - they're copying Apple, and they're stealing users from both SE and Nokia as a result. Aren't they?
It's only been a few years since Apple came up with this UI. How can you say without a shadow of a doubt that people would still love it 5 years down the line?
I can't, nobody can, but then nobody is suggesting for a second that Apple should never change or improve on their UI, they just have an advantage right now in that their's is relatively new, still innovative and reasonably unique, and still seemingly engaging many users. Would you really not like those same things to be true of SE's interface?
There are lots of people who still prefer the quick navigation offered by numpad shortcuts or the convenience that a proper status screen offers (Which every true smartphone has). Who knows? The iPhone could be the next RAZR, even.
The iPhone could be the next Girls Aloud, who cares, it's irrelevant here. Whatever happens in the future, right now the iPhone's doing something right, and SE are doing something wrong. If Apple don't respond to changing demands then of course they could go the same way as Motorola, but SE? That's already happening.
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se_dude
Joined: Nov 07, 2007
Posts: > 500
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The fact that the iphone is selling so well has much to owe to its carriers. In india the iphone costs around 700$s which is insane and has less than .01% of the total share. |
Arne Anka
Joined: Nov 05, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Sweden
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On 2009-06-10 18:22:39, Boinng wrote:
Did you make that figure up, or research it?
If Apple has around 1% of the market share and SE around 6% I think you can make qualified guess. 
[ This Message was edited by: Arne Anka on 2009-06-10 17:51 ] |
synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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Did you make that figure up, or research it? If it's true, that's actually pretty damning for SE. They're a long established manufacturer of a huge range of phones desiged for every pocket... Apple make one very expensive premium device, launched only two years ago. Are their sales really as much as a fifth of SE's already? Imagine what would happen if they sold more than one phone...
Like it has been pointed out, it's just a matter of quoting from the market share percentages published a few months ago.
If Apple had more than one phone, then all they hype they generate would evaporate. it's as simple as that. Nokia updated the N85 to the N86 and it gets a footnote in the blogs. The fruitphone just about catches up to 2007 tech and we have pages upon pages of raving ecstasy. As Se_Dude said, if it wasn't for the carrier subsidies, they wouldn't sell anywhere close to that number. Look at Apple's computer sales: They are falling and there are no subsidies to back them up:
http://www.businessinsider.co[....]d-be-worse-this-quarter-2009-5
BTW, AAPL stock is actually inching downward since the WWDC after a huge rally in anticipation to the event. Shouldn't it be exploding if the investors were enthralled by the announcements?
Unless and until Apple spins the mobile phone division off into a seperate company, there is no point in comparing their profits with that of dedicated mobile phone manufacturers. We are just recovering from a massive recession that saw even Nokia get their profits decimated by 90%.( They are not in the losses because they have mastered the art of making low end phones really, really cheap). Apple on the other hand has the massive success of the iPods to back them up.
So how about changing their UI because their market share is falling, brand loyalty is dissapearing, and they desperately need to reconnect with their customers?
And how did you arrive at the conclusion that changing the UI would magically wipe away all of SE's problems overnight? You're just projecting your wishlist on to a situation that has a lot more to it that 12x3 grids of icons.
So why is SE making a massive loss? Why is their market share falling?
This deserves a thread of its own. Anyway, as per popular opinion,they are making the right steps to get out of the predicament; no matter what your personal opinion may be.
The iPhone could be the next Girls Aloud, who cares, it's irrelevant here. Whatever happens in the future, right now the iPhone's doing something right, and SE are doing something wrong. If Apple don't respond to changing demands then of course they could go the same way as Motorola, but SE? That's already happening.
It is VERY relevant here. You are comparing Milli Vanilli to the Claptons and the Dylans of the industry. They are new and they have all the flash. The others are a bit old and rusty. But unless and until Apple shows constant innovation and staying power, I wouldn't count on them as the yardstick of anything.
Also, SE is NOWHERE near the condition MOTO is in. Moto has lost the will to live. Nothing worthwhile is coming out of their R&D anymore. SE on the other hand has unveiled some phones that have got people talking. They are also taking steps to provide content of their own. Also, as many members would point out, SE is still a very popular brandname in many countries. It's not surprising to see them as #2 or #3 in many places. The reason Samsung and LG leapfrogged them (In real world. Not on the internet where paper spec maniacs argue over theoritical superiority) is because they sell kabillions of CDMA phones (Something SE doesn't do) and excellet tie ups with carriers to offer contract deals (Again, something SE is very weak at). |
mode
Joined: Jan 12, 2007
Posts: > 500
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@Boinng
I think it's too risky for a UI revamp at this juncture because it might backfire and they might lose customers that value the ui's simplicity and familliarity. It happened to me recently and i almost stopped subscribing to a design software that recently had a ui overhaul. i was pissed and still not impressed, and this could very well be the case for SE. If they decide to eventually do this, they will need to spend significant resources in developing something that echoes perfection
Ericsson EH97, GA628, GF768, A2618s, T29s Sony Ericsson T68i, S700i, P990i, Z558i, W902, W995, X10, Arc S
*Xperia V*White*Black MW600*Sandisk Mobile Ultra 64GB microSDXC* |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
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On 2009-06-10 19:33:45, synn wrote:
If Apple had more than one phone, then all they hype they generate would evaporate. it's as simple as that. Nokia updated the N85 to the N86 and it gets a footnote in the blogs. The fruitphone just about catches up to 2007 tech and we have pages upon pages of raving ecstasy. As Se_Dude said, if it wasn't for the carrier subsidies, they wouldn't sell anywhere close to that number. Look at Apple's computer sales: They are falling and there are no subsidies to back them up:
I'm sorry but this paragraph is just nonsense. For starters of course the carrier subsidies help, as they do for ALL phones. How many of the millions of Nokias and SE's out there have been literally given away by the networks over the years? How many "loyal" customers of Nokia and SE are simply used to getting them free on upgrade year in, year out? Neither brand would be anywhere without the massive subsidisation they've received from networks particularly in Europe over the last decade or so.
Why would the "hype" over Apple's phones evaporate if they had more than one model? Because Nokia have more than one model and they don't get the hype, is that genuinely your logic? Nokia are also Finnish, would Apple become a Finnish company if they launched another phone? That supposition is no stranger than yours.
Why on earth should we look at Apple's computer sales when they have literally no correlation to anything we're talking about here? Shock - in the middle of a recession people don't buy as many computers - so what? What does that tell us about the user interfaces of mobile phones exactly?
BTW, AAPL stock is actually inching downward since the WWDC after a huge rally in anticipation to the event. Shouldn't it be exploding if the investors were enthralled by the announcements?
Your mistake is in believing that I care about Apple's stock performance, or even that the success or otherwise of the 3G S will prove or disprove this argument. Maybe Apple have made a terrible error in not updating the iPhone more substantially, maybe the 3G S won't sell, but if it doesn't - doesn't that again underline the fact that companies need to innovate more in the mobile space? If the 3G S isn't innovative enough anymore after two previous generations of iPhone, what possible chance does SE's huge range of refreshed 2002 designs have?
Unless and until Apple spins the mobile phone division off into a seperate company, there is no point in comparing their profits with that of dedicated mobile phone manufacturers. We are just recovering from a massive recession that saw even Nokia get their profits decimated by 90%.( They are not in the losses because they have mastered the art of making low end phones really, really cheap). Apple on the other hand has the massive success of the iPods to back them up.
Nice point, well made, except nobody was comparing Apple's profits with anyone else, we were talking about the growing share of the mobile market by Apple and other more dynamic entrants such as Samsung and LG, and the declining share of SE in the face of that. This isn't about how many computers or ipods Apple sell, in fact it's not necessarily about Apple at all, it's about the changing demands of consumers and the way in which SE, with it's continual losses, is failing to adapt to that. Enter the W995.
And how did you arrive at the conclusion that changing the UI would magically wipe away all of SE's problems overnight? You're just projecting your wishlist on to a situation that has a lot more to it that 12x3 grids of icons.
My wishlist? What wishlist? All I'm doing is coming to the same conclusion as the Gizmodo article - SE's UI is outdated, and that's part of the reason they're losing market share (not to mention mindshare) while others with more innovative and original designs are on the up. It's not a particularly controversial view, I just don't think you want to admit that anything's wrong in what SE have been doing...
So why is SE making a massive loss? Why is their market share falling?
This deserves a thread of its own.
In other words, you don't want to deal with it, you just want to tell me I'm wrong. I'm not wrong.
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synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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Nice bit of selective reading there. Either you didn't pay attention to the parts that warranted attention or you didn't want to. I'll try to find some logic in your post non linearly.
I just don't think you want to admit that anything's wrong in what SE have been doing...
In other words, you don't want to deal with it, you just want to tell me I'm wrong. I'm not wrong.
...which means you didn't read this:
The reason Samsung and LG leapfrogged them (In real world. Not on the internet where paper spec maniacs argue over theoritical superiority) is because they sell kabillions of CDMA phones (Something SE doesn't do) and excellet tie ups with carriers to offer contract deals (Again, something SE is very weak at).
You wanna discuss this in full stretch? Start another thread. I'll be around.
'm sorry but this paragraph is just nonsense. For starters of course the carrier subsidies help, as they do for ALL phones.
Eh, no.
Apple's biggest market is USA, where neither Nokia nor SE have competing levels of subsidies for their high end phones. Nowhere else in the world has the iPhone sold such monumental numbers, IIRC. Look at countries where Apple offered the iPhone at a truer price: Countries like India, where N95s and C905s sell very well:
Apple is nowhere in sight.
Get your comprehension skills in order and read things as they were typed. Please.
Why on earth should we look at Apple's computer sales when they have literally no correlation to anything we're talking about here?
...which means you didn't read this:
They are falling and there are no subsidies to back them up:
Now read that in co-relation with the part about iPhones selling well because of subsidies.
it's about the changing demands of consumers and the way in which SE, with it's continual losses, is failing to adapt to that. Enter the W995.
Nobody denied that. My point was that a change of UI is not the answer to that problem. Did you miss the Satio and Aino announcements? How about the new Xperia and the upcoming Android phones? Do they seem like the same old to you? If they do, I'm sorry; I can't help you.
Your mistake is in believing that I care about Apple's stock performance, or even that the success or otherwise of the 3G S will prove or disprove this argument.
Which means that you're just a fanboy commenting about how companies should run their business without actually understanding how the system works. My bad. I shouldn't have bothered.
Why would the "hype" over Apple's phones evaporate if they had more than one model? Because Nokia have more than one model and they don't get the hype, is that genuinely your logic? Nokia are also Finnish, would Apple become a Finnish company if they launched another phone? That supposition is no stranger than yours.
Ok, that just made my head hurt. I'm out of this one. Toodles.
[ This Message was edited by: synn on 2009-06-11 14:09 ] |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
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On 2009-06-11 15:01:11, synn wrote:
Nice bit of selective reading there. Either you didn't pay attention to the parts that warranted attention or you didn't want to. I'll try to find some logic in your post non linearly.
That's coming from the poster that entered this topic by responding to one short line of a four paragraph post, while ignoring every other point made by me or anyone else. Ironic.
...which means you didn't read this:
The reason Samsung and LG leapfrogged them (In real world. Not on the internet where paper spec maniacs argue over theoritical superiority) is because they sell kabillions of CDMA phones (Something SE doesn't do) and excellet tie ups with carriers to offer contract deals (Again, something SE is very weak at).
You wanna discuss this in full stretch? Start another thread. I'll be around.
So SE are failing because they don't do CDMA phones, and because the carriers don't like them anymore. For some reason. And those are the only two theories you'll tolerate, but you don't want to talk about them right now.
Righto.
Here's me naively thinking it might be something to do with their product.
Eh, no.
Apple's biggest market is USA, where neither Nokia nor SE have competing levels of subsidies for their high end phones. Nowhere else in the world has the iPhone sold such monumental numbers, IIRC. Look at countries where Apple offered the iPhone at a truer price: Countries like India, where N95s and C905s sell very well:
Apple is nowhere in sight.
Wait - you're telling me that Apple have sold more of their extremely expensive premium phone in countries where the price was subsidised by the networks. In countries where it's not subsidised and is just plain expensive, cheaper phones are easier to sell.
My god, you're right! The W995 interface is fine after all!
Why on earth should we look at Apple's computer sales when they have literally no correlation to anything we're talking about here?
...which means you didn't read this:
They are falling and there are no subsidies to back them up:
You're mistaken, I read every word of your post, I just don't agree that a discussion on Apple's computer sales is (a) in anyway relevant to this topic, or (b) justifies a discussion on subsidy. The housing market is dropping, houses aren't subsidised either, what does that prove in regard to the success or failure of SE's user interface? Nothing at all.
Nobody denied that. My point was that a change of UI is not the answer to that problem. Did you miss the Satio and Aino announcements? How about the new Xperia and the upcoming Android phones? Do they seem like the same old to you? If they do, I'm sorry; I can't help you.
So what are you saying - a change of UI is not the answer to the problem, but look, have I seen that SE are changing the UI in answer to the problem? Well yes, as it happens I have seen that, but the thing is the only phone you've mentioned there that's actually on the market is the Xperia X1. The "new UI" of the X1 was Windows Mobile 6.1, probably the oldest and least popular smartphone UI (even amongst its own users) that they could have possibly chosen. Big success, was it?
The Aino is a step in the right direction, as noted in this topic already. The Satio is less interesting in some ways - I don't have high hopes for S60 or Symbian in the long term, but time will tell. As for Android, the sooner the better.
Your mistake is in believing that I care about Apple's stock performance, or even that the success or otherwise of the 3G S will prove or disprove this argument.
Which means that you're just a fanboy commenting about how companies should run their business without actually understanding how the system works. My bad. I shouldn't have bothered.
Way to go missing the point. Again.
Ok, that just made my head hurt.
I think you probably need to re-read this topic.
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2009-06-11 14:54 ] | |
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Posted: 2009-06-09 16:27
