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Petition for SE to use CCD in their top C-series phones |
AbuBasim
Joined: Nov 04, 2005
Posts: > 500
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@max_wedge,
Very good post. Just one point which I am not sure correct:
On 2008-05-01 09:03:54, max_wedge wrote:
An example of this, the K800 out performs K750 on low light performance, yet has a smaller sensor.
AFAIK, the K750 uses the IMX011 (PDF link) sensor while the K800 uses the IMX018 sensor. Compare the specs on the second page of both PDFs. The cell size of the IMX011 is 36 percent larger the IMX018's and the result of this is that the sensitivity more than 80 percent higher!
The reason for the K800 to be producing photos with less noise is due the K750 not having enough processing power to perform extensive in-camera NR (noise reduction). (You could also put it differently and say that the K750's sensor is bright enough not to require much NR!)
The K800 does NR and sharpening and the result is more appealing in most people's eyes. Other people (like me) would argue that the resulting loss of detail is not desired and to make this less apparent you have to shrink the photos.
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[ This Message was edited by: AbuBasim on 2008-05-01 09:49 ] | |
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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I stand corrected then on the sensor size. My bad.
About the K800 NR, yes that's one of the biggest drawbacks of the camera, but more of a problem for flash photography than low light. The K800 NR actually works pretty well in low light. You get a better picture overall than the K750. On the K750 there was the blatant white noise band in the background, which could be improved with better camdrivers, but still present. K800 low light pics are noise free and still have reasonable detail. Better overall than K750 pictures, with the extra MP of the K800 in this case does mean more detail even given the NR affect.
As I said, flash photos suck I won't argue with the crappiness of flash photographs taken with K800. They might as well be watercolour paintings.
Otherwise the K800 NR is a pretty good compromise. I will say this, having a choice of NR strength is something that should have been built in to the camera interface. Then users could decide for themselves, and we'd also be able to see just how good (or bad) the K800 sensor is! 
Another thing I'll say, with the K800 it's important to hold the camera steady in low light situations. The Camera tends to favour low shutter speeds over high iso in general (but not in all circumstances). In darkness looking out at a city scape for example shutter speed goes down to about 1/8th of a second. I can hold a camera that steady, even a camera phone, but not everyone can or even realises to try.
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 Tricks and Tricks for K800 File System Tweaks for K750
[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2008-05-01 14:09 ] |
Coquito
Joined: Mar 28, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: Moca, Rep.Dom
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The problem with you people is you analize the picture too much searching for small imperfections (Thanks god I m no a Pro.Photographer)
Remember...
s700 vs k750...
k750 vs k800...
k800 vs k850...
future
k850 vs c902
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Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Toronto, Ontario
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Great last two posts Max.
For those still wanting CCD and believing that CCD is just ultimately better regardless of anything. Take note that Sony has 3 HD-HDD video camcorders that are based on CMOS sensors not CCD! I forget the models just now but they're available in North America and elsewhere presently. I'm not sure of the picture resolution, but its pure 1080p video resolution.
|AppleTV2|iPhone 12Mini 256GB|iPad Pro 256GB| Previously ...  K750|Z500|Z520|K700|K790i|K850i, :Ericsson: T18z|T28World|T36m x3|T68m (Ericsson, not the rebranded T68i). |
Sony α
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
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From: LDN/TYO
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@Prom1
Agreed, CCD is effective yes, but look at the Sony DSC-R1, it used a CMOS, as does the newer range of Sony Alpha DSLR's...
Nikon, use CMOS sensors in their Professional Range - a CMOS is just as effective, maybe those of you who want a CCD actually just want better Optics, and an option to disable Noise Reduction!
Sony Alpha.
imaging.like.no.other
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AbuBasim
Joined: Nov 04, 2005
Posts: > 500
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Want to see the photo quality of a CMOS-based P&S digicam? Look at the Kodak C513 shots at Flickr.com. And depending on your printing size requirements, either look at the small ones or search and have a look at some of the large indoor or low light photos. At a price around USD 80 I guess you should not be too demanding... but add a few more bucks buy a camphone instead and get the same photo quality!
Compare the low light shot linked above with this from a CCD-based camphone.
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[ This Message was edited by: AbuBasim on 2008-05-01 16:53 ] |
Radiux399
Joined: Sep 06, 2007
Posts: 246
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It really doesn't matter to me whether SE uses CMOS or CCD sensors in their phones. SE has certain limitations they need to work within (and usually a budget) and so they choose to stick to the more popular and widely available CMOS sensors found just about everywhere these days.
However, I DO wish SE would focus more on the quality of their cameras rather than the megapixels and other "features" such as face and smile recognition. Despite the K850 being 5mp and several years newer than the K750, it still manages to take only slightly better quality pics than its predecessor, and in some ways, the K850 is actually worse.
Talking about noise reduction in SE phones.... In a comparison I did between the K850 and my T650, I thought that the K850 would surely beat it in low light conditions due to the much larger lens thus allowing more light in. Imagine my surprise when I found this result:
(click to expand)
I don't know what SE is doing, but they really need to get their act together when their flagship camera phone is beaten by a lesser fashion phone of theirs. I have several other low light comparison pics that show the same exact thing. As a matter of fact, the other ones put the K850 in much worse light 
[ This Message was edited by: Radiux399 on 2008-05-02 00:09 ] |
AkuKL
Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 116
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For a layman like me. I don't really care whether its CCD or CMOS as long as it yield high quality picture. |
EddieAdams
Joined: Nov 12, 2007
Posts: 251
From: L.I., New York
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On 2008-05-01 15:59:38, Prom1 wrote:
Great last two posts Max.
For those still wanting CCD and believing that CCD is just ultimately better regardless of anything. Take note that Sony has 3 HD-HDD video camcorders that are based on CMOS sensors not CCD! I forget the models just now but they're available in North America and elsewhere presently. I'm not sure of the picture resolution, but its pure 1080p video resolution.
Sony a wrote:
@Prom1
Agreed, CCD is effective yes, but look at the Sony DSC-R1, it used a CMOS, as does the newer range of Sony Alpha DSLR's...
Nikon, use CMOS sensors in their Professional Range - a CMOS is just as effective, maybe those of you who want a CCD actually just want better Optics, and an option to disable Noise Reduction!
Are we really comparing LARGE CMOS sensors with equally as LARGE optics to the small size of sensors and optics required in a cell phone camera? At that scale a extra sensitive sensor is required for consistent quality photos. CMOS is coming along, yes, but we are talking about now. Does SE use low-quality optics in their cell phones?.... I doubt it considering their relationship with Carl Zeiss. http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/articles/story_4740.html
I mean, citing CMOS's use in DSLR's as a example of it's quality isn't really reasonable. I don't want to wear my phone around my neck. You can't honestly tell me the k850 or the sc905is <(you know what I mean) aren't dissapointments. Abu has repeatedly shown examples of how much better CCD is on the small scale of sensor and optics used in cell phones. I don't know everything but, pictures don't lie. I'd rather not wait around for CMOS to catch up to CCD at the size that is required for cell phone imaging. Not claiming to know more than I do, just going by what I see and a little common sense. ttt...
[ This Message was edited by: EddieAdams on 2008-05-03 07:58 ] | |
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Posted: 2008-05-01 10:48
K750|Z500|Z520|K700|K790i|K850i, :Ericsson: T18z|T28World|T36m x3|T68m (Ericsson, not the rebranded 
