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The Gulf War 2 Thread - Stick to the topic this time. |
axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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[ This Message was edited by: axxxr on 2004-07-01 05:29 ] |
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baff
Joined: Jun 06, 2003
Posts: 16
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Sammy boy, you clueless twonk! the photos of uk troops brutalising iraqi prisoners were proven to be fakes, so that is not up for debate. YOU CLUELESS TIT!!
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@axxxr
The Iraq situation was very similar to the situation in the 1930's, and I shall explain why.
Two power mad dictators were intent upon increasing their own power and expanding their territorg at the expense of surrounding nations.
Both Germang and Iraq were assumed to have weapons capable of inflicting massive damage e.g. an airforce capable of destroying Britain and WMDs. Both assumptions were only partly true.
Both Iraq and Germang received support and acknowledgement from the nations who would later oppose them.
In the run up to both wars there were huge swathes of the populations of the Western powers who regarded any form of military action as unacceptable. Politicians who proposed using force were labelled 'warmongers' and 'liers' for 'deceiving' the public.
Both Iraq and Germany would have liked to have had nuclear weapons, thankfully niether was given the chance to develop such weapons because of offensive action against them.
There are many other similarities, which I shall not mention to keep this post from becoming too long.
I'm not quite sure what it is you think the U.S. is lying about with regards to Iraq, not that l'm saying they are completely honest, but apart from oil and friendly regime in the region I don't see what they have to gain. If one looks at the disadvantages then one would really wonder why Bush would have ever even thought of invading Iraq, regardless, a tyrant is now gone.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@axxxr
The Iraq situation was very similar to the situation in the 1930's, and I shall explain why.
Two power mad dictators were intent upon increasing their own power and expanding their territorg at the expense of surrounding nations.
Both Germang and Iraq were assumed to have weapons capable of inflicting massive damage e.g. an airforce capable of destroying Britain and WMDs. Both assumptions were only partly true.
Both Iraq and Germang received support and acknowledgement from the nations who would later oppose them.
In the run up to both wars there were huge swathes of the populations of the Western powers who regarded any form of military action as unacceptable. Politicians who proposed using force were labelled 'warmongers' and 'liers' for 'deceiving' the public.
Both Iraq and Germany would have liked to have had nuclear weapons, thankfully niether was given the chance to develop such weapons because of offensive action against them.
There are many other similarities, which I shall not mention to keep this post from becoming too long.
I'm not quite sure what it is you think the U.S. is lying about with regards to Iraq, not that l'm saying they are completely honest, but apart from oil and friendly regime in the region I don't see what they have to gain. If one looks at the disadvantages then one would really wonder why Bush would have ever even thought of invading Iraq, regardless, a tyrant is now gone.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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eh....whats up with baff? 
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Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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@baff -  Try looking at the date that that particular post was made, it was before those photos were revealed to be fakes. Doh. Get with the programme!!!! 
@axxxr - tell me about it!
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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no matter the level of development of the WMDs in Iraq (and they were in development), nobody has ever denied or refuted saddam's INTENT to have them - or the fact of his numerous other atrocities.
it is good to see the iraqi people have their day in court against him (and funny to see the judge telling him to watch his mouth ).
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ADT0079
Joined: Oct 08, 2003
Posts: 100
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Watched the 911 movie and all i have to say is wow
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Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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@adt - sounds like it's a good film then! Was it thought-provoking, any revelations? Don't reveal them though, I don't want to spoil it when I go and see it!
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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ADT0079
Joined: Oct 08, 2003
Posts: 100
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Yeah I have A differnt Outlook On Bush I didnt like him some of his comments were pretty bad and moore just makes him look like a fool but theres alot taken out of contex to so ,but a movie to watch for sure
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peeta
Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 147
From: Scotland
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@scotsboyuk
"Two power mad dictators were intent upon increasing their own power and expanding their territorg at the expense of surrounding nations."
Germany invaded another country then war was declared. Iraq had invaded another country 13 years ago.
"Both Germang and Iraq were assumed to have weapons capable of inflicting massive damage e.g. an airforce capable of destroying Britain and WMDs. Both assumptions were only partly true."
Germany had used aircraft to bomb cities in Spain during the civil war in support of Franco. In Iraq wepons inspectors weren't allowed to finish even looking for WMD's not to mention there still being no proof for the possibilty there were any post 1997.
"In the run up to both wars there were huge swathes of the populations of the Western powers who regarded any form of military action as unacceptable."
Not everyone then opposed the war on Germany for non-violent reasons some like the higher classes admired the Nazi's and want to join them in an allience. People opposed the war on Iraq for many reasons including believing (and now it has been proved) that it would lead to a increase in terrorism and terrorists. |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@peeta
"Germany invaded another country then war was declared. Iraq had invaded another country 13 years ago."
Germany invaded the Rhineland in 1936 in direct contravention of international law. In 1938 Germany annexed Austria, again in contravention of international law. The invasion of Poland was never designed to start a war with Britain and France; Hitler assumed that they would let him away with the annexation of Poland as they had done with other territories.
Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, using the claim that it was actually part of Iraq as an excuse, and, like Hitler, didn't believe that it would start a major war. Like Hitler, Saddam had been given tacit approval to build up his military machine over the years by the very nations who would later become his enemies.
Iraq's invasion of Kuwait had also come after the invasion of Iran in the 1980's, clearly Saddam had aspirations of greater power and it seems likely that given enough time and without foreign pressure, he would most likely have strengthened his military power and launched yet another war.
"Germany had used aircraft to bomb cities in Spain during the civil war in support of Franco. In Iraq wepons inspectors weren't allowed to finish even looking for WMD's not to mention there still being no proof for the possibilty there were any post 1997."
Whether there were WMD's or not is not the point, it was believed at the time that there was a real and credible threat posed by Iraq against the West and Western Allies in the region. We know that Saddam had the capability to make (and use) chemical weapons, although I would be highly doubtful that his nuclear programme was very far advanced, whether he actually had chemical weapons is another matter and the current situation would seem to indicate that he didn't have many, if any at all.
The point I was making was that in both situations there was a threat of mass destruction by the enemy, which, in both cases, proved to be wild exaggerations of the truth. I would like to add that I am in no way trying to lessen the terrible destruction that was caused by air raids in WWII, but that the bomber fleets were not quite the super weapon that they had been thought of as.
"Not everyone then opposed the war on Germany for non-violent reasons some like the higher classes admired the Nazi's and want to join them in an allience. People opposed the war on Iraq for many reasons including believing (and now it has been proved) that it would lead to a increase in terrorism and terrorists."
Your point seems somewhat conflicted here, apparently confusing class issues with anti-war feeling along with supposition that is debateable. I would like to point out to you that Nazi sympathisers were very much in the minority in Britain and the overwhelming reason that people were against Churchill's stance of opposing Germany in the mid 1930's was that very many of them remembered the First World War and how awful it had been; they had absolutely no wish for another war, which some felt might be the end of civilisation. Appeasement was supported by the population at large and those calling for a tougher stance were ridiculed and labelled as warmongers. It was only when Hitler invaded Poland and it became clear that he had no intention of peace that the public finally came round to realising how grave the situation was and attitudes changed.
The Iraq war is similar to the situation just before WWII in that most people had no wish to be involved in a war that they felt didn't concern them, as was the view concerning going to war over Czechoslovakia. The lone voices who advocated using force against Iraq were labelled warmongers and told to stop as they would create chaos, despite not being given suitable (and practical) alternatives to war.
Your point regarding the creation of more terrorists is well made, but rather out of context. The terrorism that we see in Iraq is just that, in Iraq, it has not created any new global terror network and has done very little in supporting Al Qaeda on a global scale; certainly there have been no attempts to coordinate international attacks on Western targets in the West by Iraqi groups. Al Qaeda is the force behind global terror and we should not be afraid of fighting it with all the means at our disposal, lest we appease them and allow them to grow to the point we can no longer effectively oppose them.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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and now i feel it is time for a message from the children of iraq....
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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Poll: over 40% of Canadian teens think America is "evil"
Canadian West News Services, owners of several Canadian newspapers including the National Post as well as the Global Television Network commissioned a series of polls to determine how young people feel about the issues that were facing the country’s voters. Dubbed "Youth Vote 2004", the polls, sponsored by the Dominion Institute and Navigator Ltd. were taken with a view to getting more young people involved in the political process.
In one telephone poll of teens between the ages of 14 and 18, over 40 per cent of the respondents described the United States as being "evil". That number rose to 64 per cent for French Canadian youth.
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ADT0079
Joined: Oct 08, 2003
Posts: 100
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there kids axxxr they dont know shit they are easily influniced, and get off the america thing already. because of u my opinon of the UK is that it suks ur food suks ur women suk ur president suks u suk and anything uk stands for suks u dont know shit about america, and if all u people from the UK dont like america then stop coming over here clogging are roads and beaches...yes america is evil and we dont like anybody or anything thing that is not american and how bout ur pres tony blair how bout he get off his knees and stop sukin bush's johnson...DONT BE MAD CAUSE WE HAVE EVERYTHING......SUKS TO BE U...OW YEAH IM IN LAS VEGAS HAVING THE TIME OF MY LIFE.....IT IS SO NICE TO BE AN AMERICAN.
LOSER
[ This Message was edited by: ADT0079 on 2004-07-08 00:48 ] |
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Posted: 2004-07-01 06:25
