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The Danish Mohammad cartoon row - what do you think? |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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On 2006-02-04 11:56:18, amnesia wrote:
one thing I should point out is that it's not anyone's place to say what an idividual should and should not be doing, because what's normal to you isn't normal to them. It's the typical example of how western ideology has simply pushed those to the edge of paranoia. |
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limiting this discussion strictly to the cartoon, i would have thought a western nation was entitled to pursue it's own ideology within its own borders. i think people would also do well to remember that the western laws and cultural values which allowed the cartoon to be published are exactly the same laws and values which entitle others to protest against it.
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whizkidd
Joined: May 14, 2004
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From: India
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On 2006-02-05 07:56:25, gelfen wrote:
limiting this discussion strictly to the cartoon, i would have thought a western nation was entitled to pursue it's own ideology within its own borders. i think people would also do well to remember that the western laws and cultural values which allowed the cartoon to be published are exactly the same laws and values which entitle others to protest against it.
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@gelfen, Absolutely agreed!
One of the Western virtues (Not only western, it is now considered a democratic view) is that criticisms of the social or political order form an integral part of their cultural heritage. If it were not for this Western tradition, it would have been impossible to expose the infractions of basic human rights that took place at Abu Ghraib. In fact, it was the existence of these basic democratic institutions that led eventually to the abolition of slavery in the United States . This same democratic impulse brought about an end to colonialism. And it is this very spirit that will bring an end to the policies that prevailed at Abu Ghraib and at Guantanamo.
But is it not rather shocking that [while these criticisms of the West are going on,] hardly any mention has been made of the many prisons that are scattered throughout the Arab world, such as Mazza (near Damascus ), or Abu Zaabal (near Cairo )?
Are people on these prisons not people? Or Human right laws applies only to prisoners in American (western) jails?
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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i forgot to add, with the proviso that their ideology does not contravene basic human rights.
@whizz: i think you'll find it's more fashionable to protest against the west, mostly because they have laws which necessitate that the authorities are accountable for their actions, and which protect you from repurcussions when those investigations are made. additionally, you can make a wide range of accusations under the guise of "free speech".
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[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2006-02-05 07:20 ] |
02
Joined: Sep 24, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: UK Birmingham
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Didnt really read all of the previous post.... but i get the brief issues in this thread.... well im not reffering to anyone... but im just gonna speak my mind here... if u follow a religion and its practices... meaning you respect it. People who make fun of religion with comics, movies, etc.... means they dont respect that religion.... One thing for sure is.... the creator of that comic is not Islam.... if he/she is Islam one would not dare disrespect Islam... thus the creator is not Islam.. IF let say the creator is Islam... then something wrong wth its mind... and people will get offended like any other way... coz its just wrong... damn wrong.. its totally forbidden.
I giv u a simple example... you love your mother, respect your mother.. she take cares of you.. provide you food and water.... now tell me.. would you disrespect your mother making jokes about her?? how about other people do that about your mother, would you get offended?? its the same with Islam and any religion..
sorry if im too harsh or anything... didnt mean to be rude... but some1 need to tell the facts in the face.
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dealer3
Joined: Apr 11, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: London
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(i have tried you to tell you some truths...if you wish to ignore, or read in a wrong way that is up to u...but what i say comes from the heart...i do not mean no harm to anyone...only the best...dont be some screwed person in the head that doesnt listen to anything...open your hearts...read with an open mind...then make your own decisions...im always here if you want to ask anything...i rarely look at these threads...so pm me or whatever...) = i wrote this at the end but thought its more relevant at beginiging...enjoy!
i think firstly u have to understand the importance of Mohammed (peace be upon him (PBUH)) in islam...
you have to realise what kind of a man he was...he was very very similar to jesus (PBUH) and most of the other prophets or messengers that came before them, including moses, noah, abraham etc etc...
if a cat was hurt...he would assist it...
if a old lady needed a hand he would assist her...
people use to hear propoganda about this guy...and they would hate him so much...they would spread a message everywhere...not to listen to him etc etc...but when people use to see him for themselves, they would realise instantly that this is a true man...that would listen to his message and accept islam...his message was simply this...that there is no god...but Allah (Allah is the arabic word for god) and Mohammed (PBUH) is the last and final messenger of god....
The Prophet's sayings (Hadith), Some typical examples are as follows:
"To pursue knowledge is obligatory on every believing (man and woman)." [Ibn Majah]
"Removing a harmful thing from the road is charity." [Bukhari, Muslim]
"Those who do not show tenderness and love cannot expect to have tenderness shown to them." [Bukhari]
"Adore Allah (God) as though you see Him; even if you do not see Him, He nonetheless sees you." [Bukhari, Muslim]
Although Muhammad is deeply loved, revered and emulated by Muslims as God's final messenger, he is not an object of worship.
for more info on Muhammed (PBUH) or even muslims beliefs on Jesus (PBUH) check out
http://www.islamchannel.tv/IntroductionToIslam/Introduction.aspx
and lick whatever you choose to educate yourself about...
now as a muslim today...you try to immitate or follow the teachings of Mhammed (PBUH)...if a man you love, respect and follow is being ridiculed by anyone in anyway or form...i think it is only right to protest...so that this great man, who brought peace to this earth is never ridiculed again!
i understand some of the arguments of freedom of speach etc etc...
firstly publishing facts, figures, scientific evidences is all good and sound...
having views on a person is another thing
but taking the mickey out of a man, you aint even read about, out of a man, you have never studied, out of a man that you dont know what significance he is to 1 fifth of the worlds population...any man...is absoloutly ridculous...having competitions so you can see who can ridicule a man more is absoloutly ridiculous!
there is no defence for such an action...
now today in the 21st century...some muslims have gone astray, soem muslims have forgotten the true teachings of islam...
the whole world should be educated about this man...including muslims who dont know much...
islam doesnt need modernising, whether talking bout halal meat, or justice or womens rights...islam needs to be read about...thhe teachings need to be spread...im not saying everyone become muslim...im saying look at the true teachings of islam...not what some crazy man in any country does...
when you look at religions, you dont look at some corrupt human who says he follows this religion but doesnt do nothing the religion says...you look at the religion itself and whether it teaches that...
for example:
when a person who doesnt have a clue how to drive a car sits in a merc worth £500k drives it and bashes it up...you dont say that the car is shit? or the car is bad...u say the man is a nutter...in the same way you criticise the person not the religion...
Islam is a way of life, it teaches u how to do everything in the perfectest of all ways...but the problem is people half follow this and half follow that, and that is not ideal...
you see islam teaches how to treat fellow humans...to give in charity, to never sleep if your neighbour is hungry etc etc
it also teaches morals and manners etc etc
if you were to examine the laws of a muslim, the laws of islam, then i garuntee that the morals and ethics which islam teaches and guides are better than any human rights laws, better than any women rights laws and more just than any laws in this modern world we live in today...
but you know as i said earlier...more than 250,000 books have been written against islam, and the media is widely criticising the religion instead of certain individuals who tarnish the name...this has kind of brainwashed people into hating muslims and islam...
when muslims start following this mans teachings once again thats when islam will flourish...not to say it isnt now or anything...as it is the fastest growing religion in the west (meaning america and europe...) and guess what all the propoganda about muslim women being abused...well...two thirds of the people who revert back to islam are women...and remmeber i am talking bout europe and america...the so called democratic and modernised countries...
who read the times...24th january 2006...page 4...(you can check on this by the way)
prince charles...tells wal mart...one of the biggest corporations in the world...
"we in the west need to go to islamic teachers and learn how to learn once again from our hearts as well as our minds."
peace be with you all...
dealer3
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batesie
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: London, UK
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Ok, so if a cartoon is offensive to me, i shrug it off cos its just a cartoon?
http://www.uriasposten.net/pics/JP-011005-Muhammed-Westerga.jpg
But if someone prints this, do loads of americans go nuts and try burning down embbassy HQ or make death threats over it?
http://www.internetweekly.org/images/bush_king_of_bs.jpg
[addsig] |
joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
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On 2006-02-03 14:40:55, joebmc wrote:
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Could it be that any religion can be open to ridicule or slander - except Islam?
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It does seem that way
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And before someone says Isalm is more than a religion,well maybe to an muslim yes but to a non-muslim its just a religion.
No more true (or false) than any other religion. No matter how much you claim its more than or more true than any religion. To an out sider of said relgion its just another religion.
(that can be said for all religions)
Cant count the amount of times i've seen religious figures in the simpsons and no bodys kicked up a fuss.
In one episode i'm sure homers takes the piss out of apu's god (ginsha(?)) whos an hindu.
I dont remeber mass outrage at this by hindus!
Its just been blown out proportion (possibley the media have played on this too).
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[ This Message was edited by: joebmc on 2006-02-05 13:11 ] |
batesie
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: London, UK
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i dont personally need a religion to justify my exsistance, and to me and many like me, its just some cartoons of an older middle eastern guy with a bomb on his head.
and we dont find it offensive that people start burning Danish and other national flags and embassys?
if i went out on the street with a load of people and started burning islamic items of identity, and incting hate, i'd get arrested for being RACIST!
it seems like a one rule for one and one for another thing happening again...
[addsig] |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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@Dealer3 - I hope you didn't get a nose bleed posting so far outside of the market section! 
Only kidding mate, the last few responses from Dealer3, Batesie, O2 and JoeBMC have been very thought provoking and interesting, will read them again when I get home (and not when posting from work where I really shouldn't be!  ).
I'm starting to sound like a talk show host, aren't I?
With me not being a religious person, I guess I can't fully understand what it's like being a committed Muslim, Christian, or committed to any faith really. Like Batesie, I don't need a religion to justify my existence or as a convenient way of explaining things we can't understand, though I kinda wish I did believe in something - the idea of just dying doesn't really appeal to me but that's sadly what I currently believe.... but I'm going off topic, my apologies!
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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below24
Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: London
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Well i still have not seen the "cartoon" nor do i really want to. In all essence a picture speaks a thousand words. The fact that someone with such an official position as to provide educated viewpoints to the impressional public is sad. This makes me question what kind of people are providing us with unbiased "news".
Here we are after all the wars and religious battles, there are many different views towards this "cartoon" have been varied. From Muslims, to Christians, im sure that if we were more educated in the "ways" of the Quran and islam im sure that the "outsiders" will have a better understanding as to why there has been such an uproar. After all of this, i wonder if an apology would sway the protesters; probably not.
Anyways, im still reading news about this story...
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Jim
Joined: Jan 20, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Belgium
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If only religion didn't exist, it would be peace everywhere. |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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From: The Ummah
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Being a Muslim myself, my opinion is that the cartoons have been published to hurt the Islamic world once again and the results are being demonstrated around the globe. Some say 'It's just a cartoon', well this is true but what are the intentions behind the cartoon images? Hurting Muslims is the only outcome that i can see.
OK, Islam is being well advertised on the Media and more people will convert to Islam of which there is no doubt but the manner and the ridiculing of the faith by pathetic cartoons is not the correct manner. The publishers must have know what was about to happen but as it is Islam they do not give a toss.
The Muslim world will obviously feel hurt if their beloved Messenger will be criticised in any way shape or form. He to us is the greatest human to have lived and will be till end of time. Peace be upon his soul.
We Muslims would also be hurt if any other of Allahs messengers would be criticised like Jesus, Noah, John, David etc Peace be upon them all.
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Uncle Bob
Joined: Nov 27, 2003
Posts: 202
From: Englandshire
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Personally I find this whole issue quite ammusing. IMO that cartoon was published portraying the the opinion that most "western" people have of islam.
To explain: I constantly have to hear how good and great and peaceful islam is but I have never seen any of it. The only thing I see is murder, death, mayhem and missery. People in islamic countries live in fear of their leaders, they shove weapons in the hands of small kiddies then parade them all over, they treat their woman like 3rd class citizens. Is this supposed to be a peaceful and loving religion? Until I see otherwise I would never have a high regard for islam.
Then we get to the paranoia about it being published to deliberately hurt the islamic world - bollocks.
Its easy to keep on mouthing off about "peace be upon you yada-yada-yada" Start living it then maybe people's opinions would change.
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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From: The Ummah
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What you are seeing about Islam on the media is never good and thats how they want it to be! You have fallen into their trap.
Islam is peaceful and is the best way of life for us Muslims and you only know that by living it not by watching bullshit media reports.
The fastest growing religion in the world and will be till end of time.
Ask yourself why!
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02
Joined: Sep 24, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: UK Birmingham
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@Uncle Bob
Yea why dont u tell the world to leave us alone n do wat we do.... and not to blame any explosions or murder etc on Islam.. than maybe u know what Islam is all about... my dear Uncle Bob. shheesshh!!
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Posted: 2006-02-05 07:56
