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W800i walkman capabilities discussion |
numb
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: > 500
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On 2005-08-18 06:48:41, Someone1018 wrote:
I know bad headphones can ruin the sound but I wonder how much can a great headphone improve the quality of the sound? I would of thought it depended on the player as well
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The mediaplayer itself has almost nothing to do with the sound quality.
The mediaplayer is nothing but a software that executes some commands for playback, ff etc.
The softwareequalizer can effect the balance of the sound, but not the quality of the sound. The softwareequalizer is used to modify different amplitudelevels of the soundwave, like more or less treble within a specific frequenzyrange or more or less bass within a specific frequenzyrange. It doesnt improve or decrease the actual soundquality, it only increase or decreases the soundlevel within different frequenzyranges to suit the sound to your liking. Instead of a linear signal, which really would be optimal, you might want to enhance the lowest bass and highest treble to compensate for poor headphones. This is the purpose of the softwareequalizer.
Mp3 is a digital soundformat, the actual quality of the soundplayback are determined solely by the following.
Firstly the DA converter, hardware which converts the digital signal to an analog signal for the headphones, this determines the basequality of the soundstream, how much does it distort, how linear are the soundstream, etc.
Ideally the DA converter converts the signal to a complete linear signal with no distortion, and thus almost all mp3 players, Ipods etc. have the same base soundquality, except for the cheap ones with poor DA converters.
Secondly the headphones used. The headphones are the absolute main source determing how the soundquality is perceived by the listener. Like good speakers, the headphones are responsible for atleast 80% of how it actually sounds to the listener. For any type of soundsytem, one should allways start out by finding the best speakers and/or headset one can afford, and the cost of these should be the main cost of the soundsystem.
A good headset is the single most important thing in the setup to achieve good soundquality, and the single thing that are able to make the biggest changes to how good or poor it sounds.
The firmware controlling the DA converter can have an impact on how well it operates and thus on soundquality, but it really is the least important thing.
The quality of the DA converter used in the W800/K750 are very good, just as good as the Ipods, therefore a w800 with a highquality set of headphones will outperform any Ipod with a lesser quality headphones in soundquality alone. All other things aside.
The main reason for the Ipods succes are simple, it comes standard with a good quality DA converter (but not better than many other mp3players), a good set of qualityheadphones which are the main reason for its out of the box soundquality, it has good features, it has good storage, it has good design and good marketing has given it a high buzz value. Even those without any clue about soundquality wants an Ipod, simply because its an Ipod with a high buzz value.
[ This Message was edited by: numb on 2005-08-18 13:58 ] | |
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bulti48
Joined: Nov 13, 2003
Posts: 173
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Going off topic slightly I was just wondering what experience people had with the keypad of the w800i?
I imagine it to get dirty real quick as it is made of white plastic. Am I right? |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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Quote:
| The main reason for the Ipods succes are simple, it comes standard with a good quality DA converter (but not better than many other mp3players), a good set of qualityheadphones which are the main reason for its out of the box soundquality, it has good features, it has good storage, it has good design and good marketing has given it a high buzz value. Even those without any clue about soundquality wants an Ipod, simply because its an Ipod with a high buzz value. |
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Most of what you say is correct, however the headphones that come with the iPod are simply crap. There is no other way to put it. They do not seat well, they do not block external sounds at all. One key factor that you failed to mention was the fact that no matter how good the DAC(digital to analog converter) is, the encoding of the music is the major factor in determining sound quality.
Try encoding in 64 bit and 128 bit and you will notice the difference. In this instance neither the headphones or the DAC will make the music sound quality better. To get CD like quality, sounds should be encoded at 128 or better, depending on the encoding format (.mp3 or .aac). Also .aiff and lossless is much better than .mp3 or .aac but they take up larger amounts of space.
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"Einstein was right. Einstein was probably one of them" - Close Encounters of the Third Kind
*edited on a Mac PowerBook, of course*
[ This Message was edited by: sapporobaby on 2005-08-18 15:33 ] |
MINDSCRIBE
Joined: Jun 26, 2004
Posts: 37
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One cannot compare any compressed music format such as MP3, AAC, WMA, ATRAC & many others with 16bit 44.1KHz PCM(CD quality ). All one can say is that compressed music files played at a high bit rate(128 & above) sound similar to CD. A more useful comparison between the Ipod mini & the W800i would be the signal to noise ratio(SNR) of the output stages of both devices. It is this value that differs quite a bit between music players.
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sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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On 2005-08-18 21:18:04, MINDSCRIBE wrote:
One cannot compare any compressed music format such as MP3, AAC, WMA, ATRAC & many others with 16bit 44.1KHz PCM(CD quality ). All one can say is that compressed music files played at a high bit rate(128 & above) sound similar to CD. A more useful comparison between the Ipod mini & the W800i would be the signal to noise ratio(SNR) of the output stages of both devices. It is this value that differs quite a bit between music players.
This message was posted from a K700i
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I disagree you can compare anything but to keep it local, .mp3's and .aac's have been compared and the consensus is that size for size, .aac provides better sound quality. SNR is naturally factored into this equation as you can not separate the two in the encoding process. Another factor in sound reproduction can depend on the speed of the DAC's. If they are of a lower quality, then they will naturally convert at a slower speed and you can experience latency.
To bring all of this back to the w800i, I would guess that SE is appealing to a broader market rather than an audiophile market. As someone that spent over $150 for a pair of headphones and rips all of my music above 128, for me the w800i falls short in music reproduction, but for the average Joe the w800i is plenty.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
MINDSCRIBE
Joined: Jun 26, 2004
Posts: 37
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128kbps or 356kbps MP3 is not equal to 1.4Mbs PCM ! Just because most people cannot hear what is thrown away by the MP3 codec doesnt give this form of music playback equality with CD. As for SNR, its value depends solely on quality of the electronics used in the output stages ( amplifier & D/A converter ). This value is a measure of how much noise created by the electronics degrades the original music signal. It is independent of compression ratio/bit rate!
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sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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On 2005-08-18 22:55:14, MINDSCRIBE wrote:
128kbps or 356kbps MP3 is not equal to 1.4Mbs PCM ! Just because most people cannot hear what is thrown away by the MP3 codec doesnt give this form of music playback equality with CD. As for SNR, its value depends solely on quality of the electronics used in the output stages ( amplifier & D/A converter ). This value is a measure of how much noise created by the electronics degrades the original music signal. It is independent of compression ratio/bit rate!
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True, but you have to remember that we are dealing with basic music players here. For true hi-fidelity I listen to my B&W's but for the purpose of this discussion, we are dealing with a media player built into a phone, and my responses are directed as such. For the average person here, encoding in .acc and playing back on their phone would probably give the best quality, not to mention if they are using a decent set of head phones.
Noise is a by product of the conversion process as there is no perfect world when going from digital to analog, square wave vs. sine wave. For clarification: Signal-to-noise ratios are closely related to the concept of dynamic range, where dynamic range measures the ratio between noise and the greatest un-distorted signal on a channel. SNR measures the ratio between noise and an arbitrary signal on the channel, not necessarily the most powerful signal possible. Because of this, measuring signal-to-noise ratios requires the selection of a representative or reference signal. In audio engineering, this reference signal is usually a sine wave, sounding a tone, at a recognized and standardized magnitude, such as 1.228 VRMS (+4 dBu).
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
closedforbusiness
Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 29
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I'm about to buy either a W800 or a K750 next week. I was under the impression that they are virtually the same phone only the W800 has more music facilities. That said, what is really making me sway towards the W800 is that it has Fontopia bud earphones ( no painful K750 efforts) and bigger memory stick as standard. Those are the only reasons why its most likely W800 for me. |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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On 2005-08-19 00:11:22, closedforbusiness wrote:
I'm about to buy either a W800 or a K750 next week. I was under the impression that they are virtually the same phone only the W800 has more music facilities. That said, what is really making me sway towards the W800 is that it has Fontopia bud earphones ( no painful K750 efforts) and bigger memory stick as standard. Those are the only reasons why its most likely W800 for me.
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If you are fine with this then buy the phone. Ignore the previous (overly technical) posts and get the phone and enjoy.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
JK
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: S. Africa - JOZI
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I have these headsets.. I assume they can connect to the w800 jack??
They very powerful, imo, im not really an expert or tested different h/phones...
so for me, these little babies can out do an ipod anyday!!!! |
D_G
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 260
From: Dubai, UAE
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what is the best headset to use when you are working out? the hp70, provided with W800 is perhaps not the most suitable one.
i notice whenever i use them the headset tends to fall or get pulled ot the left because the left earset is connected otthe cables of the main headset.
is there a decent set where it can stay stable during some vigorous movement?
thanks,
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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i would suggest something that hooks snugly over your ear.
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D_G
Joined: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 260
From: Dubai, UAE
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yep. you are right. but anyone has any recommendations?? |
JK
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: S. Africa - JOZI
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Like the one I posted they wrap around your ears! |
closedforbusiness
Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 29
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When I bought my HD3 walkman I used the MDR-EX71SL Bud earphones and thought they were great. When they broke on me I used the free supplied ear phones that I got with the walkman for a while. To my surprise they had much more bass to them! These were free with the walkman!!! | |
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Posted: 2005-08-18 14:26
