| Author |
so who is religous here? |
kramer_hpal
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 158
From: Turkey, Istanbul
PM, WWW
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-07-13 18:37:15, soulframe wrote:
@Kramer_pal
Maybe if someone has The Message, it can be hosted on serchive
or put into Pxxx (Movies/Trailers/Clips) thread.
I didn't realise there were this many muslim brothers on esato.
Keep up the good work.
|
|
i will be very happy with hostin "The Message". but, i dont have it english language, only in my language (turkish). if anyone has it then i can convert and host it. | |
|
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: The Ummah
PM, WWW
|
Chapter 2 Verse 255 states:
"Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)."
|
absinthebri
Joined: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 476
From: London, UK
PM |
@PeterKay
Why do you use the word "Allah"? Why not translate from the Arabic and use "God"?
[addsig] |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: The Ummah
PM, WWW
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-07-14 09:52:11, absinthebri wrote:
@PeterKay
Why do you use the word "Allah"? Why not translate from the Arabic and use "God"?
|
|
Same thing really  You know the meaning anyway!
|
absinthebri
Joined: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 476
From: London, UK
PM |
@PeterKay
*I* know that "Allah" is merely the Arabic for "God" but other people may not. I think using the Arabic keeps Muslims seperate from Jews and Christians. I think (and perhaps I'm wrong) that if people realised that the three major mono-theistic religions all worship the exact same "God", there might be less tension in the world.
[addsig] |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: The Ummah
PM, WWW
|
OK then, from now om i will do my best 
Chapter 2 Verses 284/285 states:
"To GOD (Allah) belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, GOD (Allah) Calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth, for GOD (Allah) hath power over all things."
The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in GOD (Allah), His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
|
Ayush
Joined: Sep 12, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Hyderabad, india
PM |
@paul Have you read the vinci code? The book has made some startling claims about jesus and the reliability of the facts of the bible
This message was posted from a WAP device |
absinthebri
Joined: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 476
From: London, UK
PM |
Quote:
|
On 2005-07-14 10:22:26, PeterKay wrote:
OK then, from now om i will do my best
|
|
You must do what you think is best. It just seems to me that it would aid clarity if you posted either in Arabic or English and not mix the two in one sentence.
But, I guess I don't really have strong views on it (being Buddhist).
[addsig] |
DJcreamz
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 463
From: Luton / UK
PM, WWW
|
So why dont we refere to our God as Allah ??
If he should change allah to god, why not the other way around?
|
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: The Ummah
PM, WWW
|
What a beautiful comment DJ, simply said it how it is.
|
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
PM |
Well, the mutual admiration society in here is getting a bit cloying isn’t it?
It seems all the interesting discussions occur while I’m in bed. There are a few points I want to address so sorry for dragging up some old ground. I warn you up front that I am not trying to be offensive, but so far I think the explanations given don’t address certain points very well.
Quote:
|
On 2005-07-13 11:12:39, PeterKay wrote:
Muslim women are told to Cover most parts of their bodies for their own protection, for example:
Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijaab prevents women from being molested.
|
|
I personally find that a highly sexist point of view. “All you women over there cover yourselves because we men can’t control ourselves and our sexual urges”. The fault in that example, and probably any other example, lies in the man’s inability to behave with respect. By your argument, women are being forced to dress a certain way because of the actions of men, not because alternative forms of dress are inherently bad. Doesn’t this strike anyone else as unfair? Perhaps I’m missing something, and if so I welcome further clarification.
Given the other excerpts and explanations posted I would argue that it is hijaab (in terms of proper behaviour) on the part of men that prevents women being molested. A truly righteous and devout man will not have impure thoughts, or at least will not act on them and be ashamed of them. However it is interesting to note that the suppression of sexual desire and expression is a very modern development in religious terms, and can be interpreted as a male attempt to sway influence from earlier female-dominated religions.
Quote:
|
On 2005-07-13 11:33:44, PeterKay wrote:
Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers, hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’. |
|
I also disagree with this to an extent, in part because it seems to imply that the human body in general – and the female form in particular – is inherently sinful to look upon. Far from degrading women I think women’s liberalization gives them a power over men which was previously denied them in more misogynistic times.
Doubtless exploitation and degradation exists, but I personally believe you have grossly overstated the case here. As long as a person is not forced to do something against their will, through either coercion or economic imperatives, then I don’t think it is the place of you, me or anyone else to judge whether they are exploited or deprived of their honour.
Quote:
|
On 2005-07-13 17:29:47, vanquish wrote:
Christianity is not about bettering yourself for Gods Kingdom, its about his mercy on you, his forgiveness. Nothing i can do can make god love me more or less. Nothing. |
|
Contrary to popular opinion this philosophy is central to the Christian faith. The concept of the day of judgement and the ledger of good and evil deeds is also common in Christian faith.
Quote:
|
On 2005-07-13 16:31:55, PeterKay wrote:
COMPARISON BETWEEN QUR’AN AND BIBLE
If you glance through the Bible and the Qur’an you may find several points which appear to be exactly the same in both of them, but when you analyse them closely, you realise that there is a difference of ‘chalk and cheese’ between them. Only based on historical details it is difficult for someone who is neither conversant with Christianity or Islam to come to a firm decision as to which of the scriptures is true; however if you verify the relevant passages of both the scriptures against scientific knowledge, you will yourself realize the truth.
|
|
I find this particular argument almost entirely self-serving. I am not going to try to point out any problems with the Qur’anic creation story because I don’t know it well enough, but it’s fairly obvious you don’t understand the Christian one. The following is a summary of possible answers (and yes, some of those are self-serving too but I think I’m entitled ):
Quote:
| Creation of the Universe in Six Days
As per the Bible, in the first book of Genesis in Chapter One, the universe was created in six days and each day is defined as a twenty-four hours period. Even though the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, ‘Ayyaam’ is the plural of years; this word has two meanings: firstly, it means a standard twenty-four hours period i.e. a day, and secondly, it also means stage, period or epoch which is a very long period of time.
When the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, it refers to the creation of the heavens and the earth in six long periods or epochs; scientists have no objection to this statement. The creation of the universe has taken billions of years, which proves false or contradicts the concept of the Bible which states that the creation of the Universe took six days of twenty-four hour durations each.
|
|
The assertion that the word “day” in Genesis must be interpreted as a 24 hour period is absolutely ludicrous, since it is an English word translated through several other languages. The root Hebrew term translates more or less in the same way as ‘Ayyaam’. It is widely understood by Christians that the term ‘day’ is metaphorical.
Quote:
|
Sun Created After the Day
The Bible says in chapter 1, verses 3-5, of Genesis that the phenomenon of day and night was created on the first day of creation of the Universe by God. The light circulating in the universe is the result of a complex reaction in the stars; these stars were created according to the Bible (Genesis chapter 1 verse 14 to 19) on the fourth day. It is illogical to mention the result that is the light (the phenomenon of day and night) was created on the first day of Creation when the cause or source of the light was created three days later. Moreover the existence of evening and morning as elements of a single day is only conceivable after the creation of the earth and its rotation around the sun. In contrast with the contents of the Bible on this issue, the Qur’an does not give any unscientific sequence of Creation. Hence it is absolutely absurd to say that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) copied the passages pertaining to the creation of the universe from the Bible but missed out this illogical and fantastic sequence of the Bible.
|
|
actually there is no stipulation in the bible that the light actually came from the sun, moon or stars. A liberal interpretation of John for instance might suggest it was “the light of the Lord”. However, all that aside it is still possible for their to be light without the sun – just look outside on an overcast day and you will see light but no sun. Just because there is light does not mean that an observer could determine it’s source. The fact that earth started out as little more than a ball of rock and gas means that from the planet’s surface no sun would be visible. It’s all a matter of perspective.
Quote:
|
Creation of the Sun, The Earth and the Moon
According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 9 to 13, the earth was created on the third day, and as per verses 14 to 19, the sun and the moon were created on the fourth day. The earth and the moon emanated, as we know, from their original star, the Sun. Hence to place the creation of the sun and the moon after the creation of the earth is contrary to the established idea about the formation of the solar system.
|
|
See my point above. An observer on earth would see the sun come second, while an observer in space would see the earth come second. It’s a key concept in physics called frame of reference. So God/Allah showed one person the view from earth, and another the view from space. Also note that scientific understanding had increased considerably between the authorship of the Old Testament and that of the Qur’an.
Quote:
|
Vegetation Created on the third day and Sun on the fourth day
According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 11-13, vegetation was created on the third day along with seed-bearing grasses, plants and trees; and further on as per verses 14-19, the sun was created on the fourth day. How is it scientifically possible for the vegetation to have appeared without the presence of the sun, as has been stated in the Bible?
|
|
actually it is possible for vegetation to exist without direct sunlight – the wide variety moss and algae that grows in caves for instance, and certain types of fungus. Also the number of garden plants that shouldn’t be grown in direct sunlight.
Quote:
|
The Sun and the Moon both Emit light
According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verse 16 says, "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night".
Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible.
|
|
all this means is that the sun and moon became visible from earth (see my earlier points). Btw – the fact that the moon is the “lesser light” is because it reflects light rather than producing it’s own. That the moon produced it’s own light was a commonly held misconception by all peoples regardless of religion until about the time of Copernicus.
On page 3 of this thread I offered my own interpretation of the Biblical creation story, which I have quoted below.
Quote:
|
On 2004-04-19 03:56:16, gelfen wrote:
actually most of the creation stories were intended to explain the origin of life and the earth, but in simplistic terms so that people would understand them. if you look at the Christian creation story, the "Seven Days" pretty much align with the stages of the earth's development. all that is required is to look at "days" as "ages" or "periods of time", and not all necessarily of equal length (interestingly, there is a bit of evidence around to suggest that the earth's rotation has slowed with time) but which correspond to stages of planetary development:
Day 1 - God created the heaven and the earth, and night and day, or the cosmos, including galaxies, stars (e.g. the sun) and planets
Day 2 - God created the sky, or the earth began to cool and the atmosphere (albeit toxic and without oxygen) formed.
Day 3 - God created land to separate the waters, or the molten (liquid) surface of the earth cooled and solidified, and water condensed from the atmosphere allowing for the development of plant life (very primitive anaerobic algae)
Day 4 - God created the sun and the moon, or the atmosphere began changing so the sun and moon were actually visible from earth, and oxygen was formed, which led to....
Day 5 - God created fish and birds, or the development of life on earth (inlcuding more luscious plant varieties) starting from the most primitive single celled organism, through to oceanic and amphibious life, (and primitive reptiles which evolved into birds)...and finally
Day 6 - God created the other animals, Adam and Eve, or the development of mammalian life, culminating in the evolution of the human species.
Day 7 - God rests, creating the Sabbath, or it's all done so off you go and live on this big blue rock, and we try to answer all our questions about the previous 6 days (you know, the bits we weren't there to see).
it's interesting to note that in geological terms, each "day" was shorter than the one preceding it. as for evolution, well creation doesn't preclude evolution - it just summarizes it for the scientifically impaired.
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-07-14 10:06:54, absinthebri wrote:
@PeterKay
*I* know that "Allah" is merely the Arabic for "God" but other people may not. I think using the Arabic keeps Muslims seperate from Jews and Christians. I think (and perhaps I'm wrong) that if people realised that the three major mono-theistic religions all worship the exact same "God", there might be less tension in the world. |
|
I agree with this entirely
Quote:
|
On 2005-07-14 10:29:27, Ayush wrote:
@paul Have you read the vinci code? The book has made some startling claims about jesus and the reliability of the facts of the bible |
|
Yes, but it’s a work of fiction nobody will ever know for sure anyway. Regardless, it doesn’t alter the essence message. All it would really prove is that man is imperfect, which we all knew anyway. It’s a good read though.
Anyhow, I’m off home from work to bed. Hope to have some good responses to this lot tomorrow. I'm happy to be corrected if I missed anything obvious 
_________________
Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where people talk to him
[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2005-07-14 09:57 ] |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: The Ummah
PM, WWW
|
"By your argument, women are being forced to dress a certain way because of the actions of men"
Untrue, Islam does not force anybody to do anything. It is upto the person to follow the scriptures not forced. If they follow they will be given a reward and if not then punishment. Force is a wrong word to use.
Chapter 2 Verse 286 states:
"On no soul doth GOD (Allah) Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."
|
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
PM, WWW
|
Morning PeterKay! Hope you're OK.
Just read your last statement about people not been forced to do what it says in the Quran, but they saying that God rewards those who do, and punishes those who dont.... That sounds like a very severe coercement to me!
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
|
DJcreamz
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 463
From: Luton / UK
PM, WWW
|
Thanks Peter. im quite touched
|
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: The Ummah
PM, WWW
|
Morning Sammy_boy, how's it going?
Another quote from the Glorious Quran, Chapter 3 Verses 18/19:
"There is no god but He: That is the witness of Allah, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.
The Religion before (GOD) Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account."
| |
|
Access the forum with a mobile phone via esato.mobi
|
Posted: 2005-07-14 09:35
