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No edge support in SE phones |
orange
Joined: Mar 13, 2002
Posts: 397
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On 2005-05-16 08:41:06, orange wrote:
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On 2005-05-13 15:41:32, scotsboyuk wrote:
Well the standard formatting used in English (the language we are all using here) is to put the slowest one at the left and work your way to the right where the fastest should be. Certainly that's how it is written most often as far as I can see.
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I don't know what standards do you use in UK or if you had math in school. Those things that I used between technologies are mathematical symbols.
">" means "greater than", ie. the clause on the left side of the sign is bigger, or in this case faster, than the one on the right side.
It's good to learn something new every day... 
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On 2005-05-13 15:41:32, scotsboyuk wrote:
You suggested that networks should use EDGE because it is not a competing technology with WCDMA.
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Can't recall saying that. Could you point me where I have said that? I only said that those are not competing technologies. Period.
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On 2005-05-13 15:41:32, scotsboyuk wrote:
To be fair to the networks, 3G does roll off the tongue a little easier than WCDMA and 3.5G is in a similar position with HSDPA. It's all about buzzwords, the networks love buzzwords.
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That's not exactly what I meant. For end user they should use something non-technical buzzword marketing, no 3G's, WCDMA, EDGE's. Something else.
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On 2005-05-13 15:41:32, scotsboyuk wrote:
Make no mistake about it, 3G covereage is definitely on the rise and I would say that within the next decade all EU nations at least will have some level of 3G covereage. This covereage will be at blanket levels in many nations and likely at near blanket levels in many others.
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I think we have a bit different idea what is rapid. For you it seems that decade is rapid, but for me it's not. Also the vendors, who are actually delivering the infrastructure and devices, are saying that the development of 3G hasn't been as fast as expected.
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On 2005-05-13 15:41:32, scotsboyuk wrote:
One wonders then why you have such trouble in understanding the relatively simple arguments being forwarded here as to why EDGE is not supported by either SE in anything but a minority of their products.
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One also wonders why Nokia has implemented it succesfully...
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On 2005-05-13 15:41:32, scotsboyuk wrote:
Ironic that you do believe your own hype though.
Anyone who believes that any mass technology involving the building of infrastructure on national and even continental levels will be smooth sailing is quite probably asking why gullible was removed from the dictionary at the moment.
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I don't quite get what you're implying here. I wasn't hyping anything, quite opposite. You're the one who's hyping the rapid growth of 3G.
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On 2005-05-13 15:41:32, scotsboyuk wrote:
It is? As far as I can see the 3G market is heavily dominated, across Europe at any rate, by LG, NEC and Motorola as well as considerable input from SE. This is in no small part due to the fact that these manufacturers (with the exception of SE) have been used by 3, which was one of the first 3G networks in Europe.
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I recall this funny thing about 3, when they launched 3G services. They didn't take Nokia 3G devices to their portfolio, because it didn't have video call capability. A short while after, probably because of low sales, they were kind of forced to took Nokia 7600 to their portfolio. The results of that can be read all over, here e.g. http://techdigestuk.typepad.c[....]t/2004/03/threes_hit_phon.html . I couldn't find the news, but I remember reading somewhere that when 7600 sold 7000 - 10000 units per week, the second most sold device (some motorola) sold around 1000 units per week. Hence I wouldn't call it's dominated by those you raised.
[ This Message was edited by: orange on 2005-05-16 07:58 ]
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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On 2005-05-16 08:41:06, orange wrote:
I don't know what standards do you use in UK or if you had math in school. Those things that I used between technologies are mathematical symbols.
">" means "greater than", ie. the clause on the left side of the sign is bigger, or in this case faster, than the one on the right side.
It's good to learn something new every day...
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It is a shame that you seem to have devoted all your time to mathematics and not bothered with basic grammar. Words tend to be written in grammatical sentences (or as close as one's ability allows) and not mathematical notation. Then there is also the fact that one tends to work from left to right in English in the manner of GPRS/EDGE/UMTS.
I suppose that if one has to use mathematical notation one could even write it as GPRS < EDGE < UMTS (the '<' means 'less than', see you learn something every day. ).
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On 2005-05-13 15:41:32, scotsboyuk wrote:
You suggested that networks should use EDGE because it is not a competing technology with WCDMA.
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Can't recall saying that. Could you point me where I have said that? I only said that those are not competing technologies. Period.
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Certainly:
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On 2005-05-11 10:55:50, goldenface wrote:
So what would be the point of UMTS in Europe if Edge is so ready to be implemented?
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As I explained earlier, these two technologies are not competing, but complementary.
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[scotsboyuk's commentary: Ok chaps in this one we see orange inferring from goldenface's post that both UMTS anf EDGE can happily coexist with one another, in other words he thinks that the networks can use both.]
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
That isn't a bad idea actually, although the politics of it probably mean that it won't happen.
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I don't actually get what's the politics in this case? SE won't bring EDGE to devices because of 3G?!?! What's the politic in there? Those two are not competing technologies in any way. It wouldn't hurt anybody if the device has both EDGE and WCDMA.
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[scotsboyuk's commentary: Again we see orange saying that EDGE and WCDMA can co-exist, this time in the same handset. Now notice the end part of his statement; he is basically saying that a handset can have both EDGE and WCDMA and by implication then that the networks should support such features (why else include them?).]
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And it's quite radical for you to say that SE doesn't bring EDGE devices to the European market, unless you work for them and know their strategy for sure.
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[scotsboyuk's commentary: More implication chaps, here orange says that it is 'radical' to say that SE will never bring EDGE enabled phones to Europe. orange not being stupid obviously realises that SE will only bring products to the European market that the major operators (Vodafone, T-Mobile, etc) want, so again we have the implication that the networks should use EDGE, how else would SE sell such devices?]
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This is the point we have different views. You're saying that those two are competing technologies ie. networks/operators would have to choose one. But I'm still saying that those are complementary and you don't (wan't to?) understand why. I'll try to explain it more clearer:
The data speeds in the network goes like this in Europe at the moment, WCDMA > EGPRS > GPRS. Operator/network has the power to control it's own network, not the user. Operator can force the user to WCDMA, when available. When there's no WCDMA coverage, EGPRS comes in and when there's no EGPRS coverage, GPRS comes in. So, user always uses the fastest possible network available and has no control which one is used. Operator controls that. This is why I see those are not competing technologies.
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[scotsboyuk's commentary: Here we se eorange actually outlining his vision for how the networks should implement data services! Notice that he includes EDGE in this vision (for some reason he has decided to use the lesser used EGPRS acronym). So here we have it, the actual model of how networks should use EDGE alongside WCDMA.]
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That's not exactly what I meant. For end user they should use something non-technical buzzword marketing, no 3G's, WCDMA, EDGE's. Something else.
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I don't really see why, most people can say '3G' without the aid of a speech therapist and it removes the need for the networks to hire expensive advertising firms to think of a name for them. Then there is the small matter of different neworks using different names to consider; what if Vodafone doesn't like what T-Moviles is calling WCDMA? Very confusing for the customer.
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I think we have a bit different idea what is rapid. For you it seems that decade is rapid, but for me it's not.
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Well apart from seemingly having more patience than you do, I would also like to think that I have a somewhat better understanding of the timescales involved in such processes.
Converting an entire continent with hundreds of millions of mobile users at different levels of technological sophistication and financial ability takes time. Actual WCDMA covereage is likely to be extended much faster than that, already some countries in Europe have WCDMA coverage levels of around 80-90%.
Waving a rattle and screaming "Now! Now! Now!" may work in the nursery, but in the mobile market it isn't likely to get you very far. Most consumers don't appear to be waving their rattles nor do they seem especially interested in elbowing people out of the way to get to a mobile phone shop to upgrade to a WCDMA handset. The change is happening and it is happening at different speeds in different markets. Most people still don't have much use for data on their mobile phone, certainly nothing that would require EDGE or even WCDMA, but the neworks are starting to persuade people to use data services more frequently through various services. This in turn, along with more competitive tariffs for 3G customers, is attracting more customers.
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Also the vendors, who are actually delivering the infrastructure and devices, are saying that the development of 3G hasn't been as fast as expected.
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3G was supposed to have been implemented a few years before it actually was, we were all promised super fast speeds and video calling. However, that is really irrelevant now as 3G actually is here and all the vendors who are delivering the infrastructure are likely to care about now is getting orders and making a healthy profit.
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One also wonders why Nokia has implemented it succesfully...
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Could it have something to do with the fact that Nokia is a much larger manufacturer than SE and actively competes in almost every mobile market on Earth, including those that use EDGE? It is a relatively simple concept to follow; SE's core markets don't use EDGE, hence few EDGE handsets.
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I don't quite get what you're implying here. I wasn't hyping anything, quite opposite. You're the one who's hyping the rapid growth of 3G.
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No problem, I'll break it down for you; I have quoted the relevant statement below:
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I have nothing against the 3G, I'm an active user of it. But I don't fall to the hype. Operators, analysts, vendors etc. were talking about 10 years ago that 3G networks are reality when the new millenium begins. New millenium began 5 years ago and we are still in the beginning of 3G. 3G will come some day there's no doubt about that, but it quite a while before everybody in Europe can enjoy that. That's not gonna happen in two or three years.
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You seem to have cocooned yourself within a hubristic paradigm (gosh don't I know fancy words?  ), which has led you to transfer your own standards upon something that is entirely outwith your own control. You the try to transfer that model you ahve create donto others e.g. this thread.
3G could have been promised at the start of the first millenium for all that it would matter; the point is that 3G is here now.
Equally a timescale of "...two or three years ..." (your words) seems to be your timescale for universal conversion from 2.5/.75G to 3G. 3G covereage might very well be at blanket levels in some area sby that point I grant you, but it is seems entirely foolish to even think of applying such a timescale to the actual user adoption patterns.
Now to your charge; I don't believe I was or am hyping the rapid growth of 3G. I have stated the facts to the best of my ability, which has namely been to say that after a slow start 3G has picked up a great deal of momentum in Europe. Last year (2004) was 3G's best year in Europe and on a global scale there was a subscriber growth rate of approximately 500%. We have also seen rapid deployment of 3G network coverage within the last couple of years, which may actually be the easiest part of the equation to get people using 3G. The initial delay in implementing 3G may actually be spurring the networks on to implementing it faster.
This isn't hype, merely observation of the market. If I really wanted to hype 3G I could talk about better services; slick marketing; convergeance of technology, etc, but I won't because I believe it to be premature.
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I recall this funny thing about 3, when they launched 3G services. They didn't take Nokia 3G devices to their portfolio, because it didn't have video call capability. A short while after, probably because of low sales, they were kind of forced to took Nokia 7600 to their portfolio. The results of that can be read all over, here e.g. http://techdigestuk.typepad.c[....]t/2004/03/threes_hit_phon.html . I couldn't find the news, but I remember reading somewhere that when 7600 sold 7000 - 10000 units per week, the second most sold device (some motorola) sold around 1000 units per week. Hence I wouldn't call it's dominated by those you raised.
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Not at all, you have selectively chosen a single handset and tried to make a generalisation from it. Where are the other Nokia 3G handsets selling at those levels? The biggest selling 3G handset(s) in the UK market, for example, are the LG 8110/20/30. Nokia has released relatively few 3G handsets in comparison with its overall portfolio and certainly hasn't had as huge impact upon global 3G sales as it does with regards to 2.5G sales. Motorola, NEC and LG continue to dominate the 3G market in Europe, primarily because there is little direct competition for them. Nokia does have some new 3G handsets so we shall have to wait and see how they do in comparison to the other manufacturers.
It should also be pointed out that the Nokia you mention sold under exceptional circumstances. At the time most of 3's handsets were less than ideal and the Nokia offering was one of the few that was both familiar to customers and wasn't riddled with bugs. Add to this the fact that many wanted to take advantage of 3's top notch tariffs and you can see why they would choose the Nokia. I suspect that customers would have bought a banana with a coat hanger sticking out the top if they thought it would work on 3 and let them sign up for one of 3's cheap deals.
I presume that posting twice was a mistake, but it is always nice to have another copy of such things, unfortunately my posts tend to be so long and boring anyway that posting twice may actually get me banned!
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-16 14:54 ] |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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On 2005-05-16 07:17:02, mario2002 wrote:
Hello buddy.Thanks fors the chat on IM
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My pleasure.
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How many countries in europe do you think already offer EDGE ?
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Having done some checking on this it would appear that this is in fact a difficult question to answer. Diffeent sources tell different tales so it is hard to give you ana ccurate answer. The map goldenface posted earlier in this thread (near the beginnin) would appear to be fairly accurate where Europe is concerned though.
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In your previous post you mention something about EDGE enabled cellphone availability in Europe.I agree with you there.But you carry on stating - edge is almost useless in europe,now I have quite a few IM buddies nicelly spread all over Europe. I speak english,german,dutch and romanian all european languages the info I get from them and what you are saying is 'a bit' different.Most don't even bother about 3G but happily embrace EDGE. It seems to me that in Europe as in the rest of the world,pricing is very important when marketing a product.
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You are quite correct and what you are saying essentially fits in with what I have been saying. Consumers are reacting well to EDGE because it offers fast data speeds and is often cheaper than 3G. This is especially important in the poorer European markets where price is more of an issue.
EDGE isn't a long term strategy for European networks though, UMTS is. EDGE just isn't powerful enough to allow the networks to offer the services they want, UMTS and later HSDPA is. EDGE is being used as stop-gap measure to offer fast data speeds to sections of the population, which either cannot afford UMTS services or which have no primary access to them. This is a patternt hat really should be adopted across Europe as it would benefit the customer immensely, however, many networks (including some of the biggest) are simply not interested at the moment. The view EDGE as being a competitor to their UMTS service.
EDGE is also not available in large sections of Europe, importantly areas such as Germany, Spain, the UK, etc where the sort of people who primarily use fast data i.e. business users, are likely to be travelling. Manufacturers are not idiots, they know that Europeans will want EDGE connectivity in some circumstances, but that it wouldn't be profitable to offer it as widely in their handsets as they do GPRS, for example. Even in areas where it is available or being trialled, it is often a single network making roaming more problematic.
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Please don't get me wrong buddy, I am not rude with you or anything. 3G is more advanced and wonderfull and all that,but I think some time will pass till everybody accepts it. I am a bit worried thou,it may take to long and competing technologies may make it obsolete by the time everybody accepts it. Greetings from South Africa. Mario.
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The timescale involved is often touted as a shortcoming of 3G and inevitable charges of it becoming outdated are then levelled. However, it should be pointed out that new technology does not just appear overnight. The entworks are committed to 3G now, they have spent too much money and invested too much time and effort in 3G to abandon it now or in the near future. Ultimately new standards need the networks to succeed and the networks are all presently committed to getting their money back from 3G.
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-16 14:28 ] |
whizkidd
Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: India
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Phew!!! 
T230 >> T610 >> Ngage QD >> N73 >> N85 >> Omnia HD >> And countless other review units |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@whizkidd
You're tired?! I'm the one doing the typing!
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
dave_uk
Joined: Mar 06, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: London, UK
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The effort's in the reading of this one!
Back on topic, where you get the tolerance to repeat yourself 18 times is beyond me! I bow to your endless supply of patience and quotation marks 
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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@dave_uk
I get a deal on quotation marks now because I use them so frequently.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
Super G
Joined: Mar 07, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: France
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@mario2002:
Check the link I sent earlier for accurate figures of EDGE networks worldwide.
For European region, the following operators have EDGE in service (I skipped Turkey, Ukraine)
Mobilkom Austria (Austria)
MobilTel (Bulgaria)
T-Mobile (Czech Republic, Hungary)
Oskar Mobil (Czech Republic)
EMT (Estonia)
Ålands Mobiltelefon AB (Finland)
TeliaSonera (Finland)
Orange (France)
TIM (Italy)
Bite GSM (Lithuania)
Telfort (Netherlands)
Telenor (Norway)
Centertel (Poland)
Polkomtel (Poland)
PTC (Poland)
Orange Romania (Romania)
Mobtel Srbija (Serbia)
EuroTel (Slovak Republic)
Orange (Slovak Republic)
Vodafone (Slovenia)
TeliaSonera (Sweden)
Swisscom Mobile (Switzerland)
[ This Message was edited by: Super G on 2005-05-16 15:49 ] |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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@SuperG
Why did you skip Turkey and the Ukraine?
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
Super G
Joined: Mar 07, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: France
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Because it brings about geopolitical discussions.
That's why I mentioned explicitly I skipped those 2 from the European region.
Had I not mentioned it, maybe nobody would have asked 
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@SuperG
Fair enough. I can see why you would have skipped Turkey, but Ukraine is a part of Europe.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
mario2002
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
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From: Jeffrey's-Bay ,South Africa
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Thous countries amount to almost half of the European population ? That strengthen even more my point - a EDGE handset is not 'almost useless' in Europe - as suggested by someone in this thread ! And yes Ukraine is very much part of Europe ! Actually is ways bigger the the averiege European country. Greetings from South Africa. Mario.
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orange
Joined: Mar 13, 2002
Posts: 397
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On 2005-05-16 14:53:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
It is a shame that you seem to have devoted all your time to mathematics and not bothered with basic grammar. Words tend to be written in grammatical sentences (or as close as one's ability allows) and not mathematical notation. Then there is also the fact that one tends to work from left to right in English in the manner of GPRS/EDGE/UMTS.
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It doesn't hurt knowing both math and grammar. Or are these two also competing things that cannot be fit to one person?
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On 2005-05-16 14:53:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
Certainly:
[scotsboyuk's commentary: Ok chaps in this one we see orange inferring from goldenface's post that both UMTS anf EDGE can happily coexist with one another, in other words he thinks that the networks can use both.]
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Yes, that's what I said. They CAN coexist and they CAN use both. Not saying that they SHOULD. Last time I checked, these two words had different meaning.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
[scotsboyuk's commentary: Again we see orange saying that EDGE and WCDMA can co-exist, this time in the same handset. Now notice the end part of his statement; he is basically saying that a handset can have both EDGE and WCDMA and by implication then that the networks should support such features (why else include them?).]
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Yes, again I'm saying that they CAN coexist and actually do coexist in some devices. Don't try to twist my words to the way it wasn't meant to be. I didn't say they SHOULD. That's just the way you like to interpret it for obvious reasons.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
[scotsboyuk's commentary: More implication chaps, here orange says that it is 'radical' to say that SE will never bring EDGE enabled phones to Europe. orange not being stupid obviously realises that SE will only bring products to the European market that the major operators (Vodafone, T-Mobile, etc) want, so again we have the implication that the networks should use EDGE, how else would SE sell such devices?]
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Again you're trying to put words to my mouth. That was just a general comment saying that you don't know something for sure or as a fact, unless you're there to decide about these things. I like to play with pure facts where you seem to ride with predictions and hunches.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
[scotsboyuk's commentary: Here we se eorange actually outlining his vision for how the networks should implement data services! Notice that he includes EDGE in this vision (for some reason he has decided to use the lesser used EGPRS acronym). So here we have it, the actual model of how networks should use EDGE alongside WCDMA.]
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Sorry for repeating myself, but again it's you saying SHOULD while I'm actually saying CAN.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Well apart from seemingly having more patience than you do, I would also like to think that I have a somewhat better understanding of the timescales involved in such processes.
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Working over 5 years in the telecommunication business does bring some understanding here, especially about the timescales.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Converting an entire continent with hundreds of millions of mobile users at different levels of technological sophistication and financial ability takes time.
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Yes, exactly. It's just your words, "Takes time" and "rapid", which are not exactly in line with each other.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Could it have something to do with the fact that Nokia is a much larger manufacturer than SE and actively competes in almost every mobile market on Earth, including those that use EDGE? It is a relatively simple concept to follow; SE's core markets don't use EDGE, hence few EDGE handsets.
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Yes, It could have something to do with the fact you said, I don't know nor do you. The other fact is that in the volume wise Europe is the most important market by far for Nokia also ie. the area you're saying is SE's core market. So, in your words, Nokia's core market don't use EDGE and still Nokia has implemented it. Did they do that just for fun?
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Last year (2004) was 3G's best year in Europe and on a global scale there was a subscriber growth rate of approximately 500%.
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Don't get blinded about those figures. Yes 2004 was the best year, and basically the first, for 3G in Europe. It isn't actually that hard to get 500% growth. It's enough when you go from none to five.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Not at all, you have selectively chosen a single handset and tried to make a generalisation from it. Where are the other Nokia 3G handsets selling at those levels? The biggest selling 3G handset(s) in the UK market, for example, are the LG 8110/20/30.
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Do you have some facts/figures on this or do we have to count on your guess on this?
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Nokia has released relatively few 3G handsets in comparison with its overall portfolio and certainly hasn't had as huge impact upon global 3G sales as it does with regards to 2.5G sales.
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Nokia is selling three 3G devices at the moment. Is the amount of selling 3G devices from other vendors noticeably higher?
BTW. Have you ever considered a political career? If not, you should definitely consider it. As the politicians also talk much, but are not actually saying anything...
[ This Message was edited by: orange on 2005-05-17 09:33 ]
[ This Message was edited by: orange on 2005-05-17 09:36 ] |
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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1 Quarter of all Nokia releases this year (about 10 handsets) will be 3G as it see more 3G expansion in Asian markets.
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2005-05-17 12:05 ] |
dave_uk
Joined: Mar 06, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: London, UK
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@orange
Would it be putting words into your mouth, therefore, to suggest that all you are telling us is what CAN currently be done, which it seems fairly obvious we already know?
Or are you just being pedantic?
It is always a sign that you are losing an argument when it becomes based on semantics 
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Posted: 2005-05-16 08:59
