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No edge support in SE phones |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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I wouldn't be surprised if that statistic were true, as I said, most people really couldn't care what standard they are using as long as it works.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC | |
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Super G
Joined: Mar 07, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: France
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On 2005-05-12 18:16:05, dave_uk wrote:
I wonder how many know what EDGE is. I would think you are talking less than 0.1%.
I find it hard to believe that statistic, given the vast quantity of advertising from 3, Vodafone and Orange. We may be geeks, but are the general British public blind?!
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These ads just brainwash people with the term "3G". They dont explain what it is. I believe most people have absolutely no clue what 3G is, apart from a funny name in some ads.. |
Super G
Joined: Mar 07, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: France
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Check this:
http://www.3gamericas.org/pdfs/edgefactsheet.pdf |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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I would be very surprised if Joe Bloggs knew what GPRS was let alone WCDMA. It just isn't something people care about; consumers don't care about the operational particulars of their microwave ovens, it's the same principle. People like things that work, end of story. The customer sees the end product; the flashy video calling feature; the fast download speeds, etc he doesn't concern himself with the specifics.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
whizkidd
Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: India
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How i wish everyone were like us folks!!  scots, that statistic should hold true almost everywhere, except.... maybe in japan!! 
T230 >> T610 >> Ngage QD >> N73 >> N85 >> Omnia HD >> And countless other review units |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@whiz
The Japanese love new gadgets, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they all care about how they work. I think people are really very similar the world over.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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On 2005-05-12 06:55:52, scotsboyuk wrote:
@mib1800
Not at all, SE only really concentrate on two markets, which are both 3G. I would agree with your statement in relation to manufacturers like Nokia, Samsung, etc.
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Well, the rest of the markets are where the growth are. I dont think it is wise for SE to just concentrate on the mature market with stiff competition. How much additional cost just to add EDGE? Even Nokia's low mid-range has EDGE.
I think a phone should be like TV where all the standards are supported.
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goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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@Mib1800 We have been down this road before on another thread. 
Sony Ericsson wants/needs to compete in the mature markets as they are the most progressed technologically, it has to, if it is to keep up.
Simply put, if if cant survive there then it wont survive anywhere!!
Ask yourself what the alternative is. Skip the stiff competition and compete in emerging markets!!!! Lets just release a slew of low-end handsets and "Oh Yeah, lets be famous for releasing loads of crap phones!"
What you seem to forget is SE is still a fraction of the size of Nokia and Moto and simply cant fling new handsets on to the market left right and centre, so it competes in high tech savvy markets where it already has a foothold and is doing quite well.
Alson, just because it isn't releasing Edge enabled handsets doesn't mean other markets are being ignored. Its more basic handsets are doing well, from what I have read, in South East Asia.
The way some people are prattling on it would seem that unless a handset has Edge in Asia it is doomed. That isn't so!! There is a market for phnes that dont have it.
I dont understand how some people rip  for it being No5 or No6 in market share and then when does release low end handsets to gain market share it gets ripped again for them not having Edge!!!!!
WTF!!!
And your last bit about why you think Edge should be a standard supported in all phones. Ask yourself why Bluetooth isn't in all phones. It can't be because it is too expensive! So what do you think the reason is?
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2005-05-13 11:45 ] |
orange
Joined: Mar 13, 2002
Posts: 397
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On 2005-05-12 15:51:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
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The data speeds in the network goes like this in Europe at the moment, WCDMA > EGPRS > GPRS.
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In reverse, but yes.
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No, in that order. Or are you saying that GPRS is the fastest one?
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On 2005-05-12 15:51:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
Hence why your argument is flawed. What you are not factoring in here is that the operators do not want to offer EDGE to their customers. It isn't a case of them not being able to to, they just do not want to do it.
I fully agree with the theory behind your point, that would be a wonderful short-term solution and I am sure the customers would love that. The majority of the networks, however, are not going to do that.
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I never claimed that that operators want or should take EDGE. All I was saying that EDGE and WCDMA are not competing technologies. You base your opinion saying that operators don't want EDGE?! That doesn't make these two technologies competing ones. If you really need a competing technology for WCDMA, it's CDMA 2000, but let's not get into that, since you probably disagree with that too...
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On 2005-05-12 15:51:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
The vast majority of customers could care less whether they are using WCDMA, CDMA 2000, EDGE or two tin cans strung together; as long as they can make and receive calls; send texts and download content they are happy.
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I fully agree with this one. That's why I don't understand why operators use such term as 3G in marketing. They should come up with something better.
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On 2005-05-12 15:51:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
The 'handful' of countries that will have full 3G covereage first e.g. UK, Italy, France, Austria, Germany, etc are also SE's most important markets, further ostracising EDGE from SE's strategy.
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You can take ' marks of around handful. You just listed more or less the countries which will have full 3G coverage at some phase during the next 10 years. There are other countries in Europe as well...
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On 2005-05-12 15:51:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
Ah the little island of Europe off the coast of continental Great Britain. 
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They are all the same for me...
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On 2005-05-12 15:51:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
Seriously though, you are wrong.
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I'm wrong in what? Saying that EDGE and WCDMA are not competing technologies? Or the mobile device wouldn't be less superior if it had both EDGE and WCDMA? These are the things I raised earlier and I haven't seen any valid argument that it would be otherwise.
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On 2005-05-12 15:51:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
The whole point of implementing WCDMA is to replace GSM. There will be certain markets, which will have 3G covereage at current GSM levels first of course, but at some point the entire EU will be using the same system. The EU already includes most of Europe, with more countries likely to join within the next ten years, 3G is the future EU standard for mobile communications, of that there is little doubt. The whole reason GSM works so well in Europe is because of that very same fact, EU standardisation.
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Yes, the point is to implement faster data rates, so that people would consume more mobile services and thus bring more revenue to the operators.
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On 2005-05-12 15:51:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
I'm not sire what it is you have against 3G, but you certainly underestimate its impact. 3G is replacing GSM in Europe, with some analysts talking of 2.5G network terminations by 2010. I believe that there has already been an announcement in Japan to the effect that 2.5G there will be finished by 2012.
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I have nothing against the 3G, I'm an active user of it. But I don't fall to the hype. Operators, analysts, vendors etc. were talking about 10 years ago that 3G networks are reality when the new millenium begins. New millenium began 5 years ago and we are still in the beginning of 3G. 3G will come some day there's no doubt about that, but it quite a while before everybody in Europe can enjoy that. That's not gonna happen in two or three years.
And it's quite radical for you to say that SE doesn't bring EDGE devices to the European market, unless you work for them and know their strategy for sure. |
mustafabay
Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Egypt
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I might be wrong, but I don't seem to be aware of any companies really supporting EDGE. So why are complaining just about SE. I meen yes you mostly are SE fans but people should just buy what best suits them, end of story. And even nokia seems to concentrating on putting EDGE in their cheaper phones. Only 6681 has edge and the comunicators I think, but the rest of their smartpone line up which is still high end doesn't have EDGE, so why should we take it all out on SE which is a lot smaller than nokia and concentrates on the same market where nokia doesn't have EDGE? |
Super G
Joined: Mar 07, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: France
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@mustafabay
Yes you are wrong. |
Super G
Joined: Mar 07, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: France
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Nokia EDGE capable phones:
http://www.nokia.com/nokia/0,,62467,00.html
9500
9300
8800
7710
7280
7270
7260
7200
6822
6820
6810
6681
6680
6630
6230
6230i
6220
6170
6101
6021
6020
5140
5140i
3230
3220
3200
N91
N90
N70
Nokia 12
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dave_uk
Joined: Mar 06, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: London, UK
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To pick up on a couple of the more bizarre points:
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On 2005-05-13 10:12:58, orange wrote:
...I never claimed that that operators want or should take EDGE. All I was saying that EDGE and WCDMA are not competing technologies. You base your opinion saying that operators don't want EDGE?! That doesn't make these two technologies competing ones. If you really need a competing technology for WCDMA, it's CDMA 2000, but let's not get into that, since you probably disagree with that too...
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Surely that is exactly what you are arguing, unless you have morphed your original postings into something else. If we are not debating the merits of EDGE support by , then what exactly is the point of this thread?
Also, you may view the technologies as complementary and not competitive, but in fact they are both. They could sit aside one another as complementary technologies, as has been said, but the operators would very much view them as competitive, in the sense that the support of and investment in EDGE could be detrimental to the speed at which 3G does develop (another subject on which your thoughts are well out of kilter with what is actually happening in the industry - 3G IS evolving here and now, if you know anything about timescales and the likelihood of them being met in the mobile industry, then you should not be surprised that it may be taking longer than was anticipated 6 or 7(?) years ago!
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And it's quite radical for you to say that SE doesn't bring EDGE devices to the European market, unless you work for them and know their strategy for sure.
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This is not radical at all. It's bloody obvious from what is actually going on if you look around you. Nokia has had EDGE support for ages, and are, if anything, innovative and do tend to implement new technologies/applications as fast as any manufacturer, IF they intend to support them at all. It is obvious that are not going to embrace EDGE in their core markets, as it is not a fundamental technology and they clearly don't believe that it is worth the cost (why everyone seems to be speculating how much it would cost to put EDGE into a handset, I don't know. Nobody here has the slightest clue (and neither do I!). Just accept therefore, that it would not be cost-effective, and be done with it!
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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On 2005-05-13 05:14:05, mib1800 wrote:
Well, the rest of the markets are where the growth are. I dont think it is wise for SE to just concentrate on the mature market with stiff competition. How much additional cost just to add EDGE? Even Nokia's low mid-range has EDGE.
I think a phone should be like TV where all the standards are supported.
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In a perfect world our mobiles would support every standard, but as has been said previously it just isn't going to happen.
SE just don't have the capacity to compete on the same level as Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, etc. SE release relatively few handsets in comparison with those other manufacturers and what they do release is largely aimed at European and Japanese markets. SE's lower end handsets may allow them some sort of foothold in developing countries though.
As to why SE has chosen this approach I really don't know. When SE was formed the executives must have made a conscious decision to focus upon Europe and Japan before other markets. SE's strategy, from what we have seen so far, seems to be based upon a gradual widening of their product base and a 'firming action' of their core markets.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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On 2005-05-13 10:12:58, orange wrote:
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On 2005-05-12 15:51:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
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The data speeds in the network goes like this in Europe at the moment, WCDMA > EGPRS > GPRS.
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In reverse, but yes.
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No, in that order. Or are you saying that GPRS is the fastest one?
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Well the standard formatting used in English (the language we are all using here) is to put the slowest one at the left and work your way to the right where the fastest should be. Certainly that's how it is written most often as far as I can see.
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I never claimed that that operators want or should take EDGE. All I was saying that EDGE and WCDMA are not competing technologies. You base your opinion saying that operators don't want EDGE?! That doesn't make these two technologies competing ones. If you really need a competing technology for WCDMA, it's CDMA 2000, but let's not get into that, since you probably disagree with that too...
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More flawed logic, there must be some sort of sale on it at the moment!
You suggested that networks should use EDGE because it is not a competing technology with WCDMA. I merely pointed out that that is irrelevant to the networks, they simply do not want to use it. The networks are playing something of a political game in rounding on EDGE. It may not be a competing technology in a technical sense, but EDGE is a competitor in a polito-economic sense. The networks want full WCDMA usage as soon as is possible, EDGE would simply get in their way.
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I fully agree with this one. That's why I don't understand why operators use such term as 3G in marketing. They should come up with something better.
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To be fair to the networks, 3G does roll off the tongue a little easier than WCDMA and 3.5G is in a similar position with HSDPA. It's all about buzzwords, the networks love buzzwords.
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You can take ' marks of around handful. You just listed more or less the countries which will have full 3G coverage at some phase during the next 10 years. There are other countries in Europe as well...
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But then that is precisely the point. I was making the point that some European countries will have full WCDMA covereage before others and listed the countries that would be most likely to achieve that .
The other countries in the EU will have to adopt to WCDMA at some stage and they will have full covereage at some point. Interestingly it is the smaller countries, only some of whom I mentioned, that actually stand the best chance of having full 3G covereage before others e.g. The Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, etc
Eastern European nations that have joined the EU will eventually have to seriously look at 3G if they haven't done so already. GSM took a number of years before it got to the stage we are at now and 3G is already well on its way to achieving that.
Further aiding the spread of 3G is the amalgamation of mobile networks under pan-continental 'alliances', mergers and acquisitions. With the bigger networks looking to create global networks it becomes ever more important to create single standards.
Make no mistake about it, 3G covereage is definitely on the rise and I would say that within the next decade all EU nations at least will have some level of 3G covereage. This covereage will be at blanket levels in many nations and likely at near blanket levels in many others.
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On 2005-05-12 15:51:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
Ah the little island of Europe off the coast of continental Great Britain.
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They are all the same for me...
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For most of us too, hence why we spend so much time trying to differentiate ourselves.
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On 2005-05-12 15:51:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
Seriously though, you are wrong.
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I'm wrong in what? Saying that EDGE and WCDMA are not competing technologies? Or the mobile device wouldn't be less superior if it had both EDGE and WCDMA? These are the things I raised earlier and I haven't seen any valid argument that it would be otherwise.
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I can only assume that you didn't read the entire passage properly or you wouldn't have had to ask that, but I shall explain again.
The reason you haven't seen any valid argument to the point otherwise is because what you are saying is basically true, from a technical standpoint. Unfortunately you seen unable, or unwilling, to accept that technicalities are not always the governing factor in the mobile marketplace.
As has been stated before, it isn't a case of the technical limitations, it is simply that the networks do not want to use EDGE. Why that is so difficult for you to understand I am not entirely sure, but it really is as simple as it sounds. You don;t have to look for hidden meaning in it, it does what it says on the tin.
The networks have decided that EDGE is not for them so they are not using it here. Perhaps you think that some of us are pro-3G and anti-EDGE, well I really couldn't care less. I want fast data speeds and I don't care if that means using 3G or just a very fast postman. As I said earlier, I would welcome the deployment of EDGE throughout Europe as a stop-gap measure until we do have full WCDMA covereage, but the reality is that that isn't going to happen.
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Yes, the point is to implement faster data rates, so that people would consume more mobile services and thus bring more revenue to the operators.
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Exactly and 3G is the method, by which the networks believe that can be best achieved.
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I have nothing against the 3G, I'm an active user of it.
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One wonders then why you have such trouble in understanding the relatively simple arguments being forwarded here as to why EDGE is not supported by either SE in anything but a minority of their products.
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But I don't fall to the hype. Operators, analysts, vendors etc. were talking about 10 years ago that 3G networks are reality when the new millenium begins. New millenium began 5 years ago and we are still in the beginning of 3G. 3G will come some day there's no doubt about that, but it quite a while before everybody in Europe can enjoy that. That's not gonna happen in two or three years.
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Ironic that you do believe your own hype though.
Anyone who believes that any mass technology involving the building of infrastructure on national and even continental levels will be smooth sailing is quite probably asking why gullible was removed from the dictionary at the moment.
What the naysayers seem to fail to recognise is that we are now in the 3G era. 3G services began in Europe a couple of years ago now and current market trends suggest that it is rapidly gaining ground with customers.
Of course we should differentiate between the different areas of analysis; customers and network infrastructure for example. Lookiing at the former we see a sharp uptake in 3G services across Europe and with increased competition and a plethora of new 3G handsets set to be released, 3G uptake is almost certain to experience further increases this year.
The latter point is perhaps the most interesting though because it shows the determination of the networks and their commitment to 3G. Many networks are already ahead of government covereage targets and the expansion continues.
Thoe who said WAP had failed are perhaps a good example to look at when we see those who criticise 3G at the moment. WAP too was built up to be more than it actually was e.g the internet on your phone! Critics wrote it off and yet now WAP and mobile data access are a valued component of network services not to mention the fact that millions of people reguarly use such services. The point being that people are very quick to write off technologies that do not perform as expected as quickly as possible. As they say, patience is a virtue ...
The other point, which is seemingly ignored here, is that the networks really don't need everyone to have 3G access. Once the major towns are covered to a sufficient level (as most already are) the networks then have a customer base comprised of most of the population. 2.5G then serves quite well to offer service to the remaining population without 3G covereage. It isn't that difficult a concept to imagine, after all there are still areas of Europe that don't have GPRS reception!
The major mobile markets in Europe will probably have full WCDMA covereage by one or more networks within the next two to three years. The smaller markets may take double that time. What one has to remembe rof course is that during this push for full covereage the actual covereage will be expanding and most of the population will already be covered. The latter stages of covereage expansion are likely to be pushes for rural covereage. The mass market for services will, in effect, be there before full covereage is reached.
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And it's quite radical for you to say that SE doesn't bring EDGE devices to the European market, unless you work for them and know their strategy for sure.
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Unless you haven't been taking notice of SE's handsets (hard to imagine since you are a member of a forum dedicated to SE) you will have noticed that since SE's foundation, they have released very few EDGE enabled handsets and none that were specifically aimed at the European market.
SE have also been one of the European market leaders with regards to 3G handsets. SE have just announced five new handsets, one of which is 3G. EDGE wasn't featured in any of them.
There are no significant EDGE deployments in Europe at the moment hence SE won't support it in their handsets designed for Europe i.e. most of them. Look at Samsung or Motorola, how many of their European handsets support EDGE?
The simple fact of the matter is that the major European networks effectively dictate market policy to the manufacturers in terms of what services they will offer. This in turn affects the market trends of the whole of Europe, which in turn affects the strategy SE adopts.
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-13 14:59 ] | |
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Posted: 2005-05-12 19:00
