| Author |
so who is religous here? |
slattery69
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: north east england
PM |
Quote:
|
On 2005-10-19 02:08:25, amnesia wrote:
as I said, we do not refuse all religions.
Of course each religion will say they are the best and if you are true to your faith you will believe in it above all else.
In Islam we believe in all other religions by God. Christianity, Judiasm and so on.
We just dont act similarly.
@slattery,
My mum is Christian my dad is Muslim they respect each others faiths and do not interfere.
i think you may have confused me with someone else who asked that question, i ve always thought muslims could respect each others faith. most sensible relgious people can ,its just the bigots who cant
_________________
Oxygen Inc|Oxygen Mobile
[ This Message was edited by: amnesia on 2005-10-19 01:09 ]
|
|
| |
|
amnesia
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Doha, London, Tokyo, Shanghai
PM, WWW
|
thanks for the quote 
|
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
PM, WWW
|
@gelfen
Wise words indeed, but then simplicity usually is. People tend to look for too much and in the process they never achieve half of what they set out to do, which in turn leads to disappointment.
Many people feel that they need a variety of things to be happy e.g. money, posessions, etc. They loose sight of what they already have and denegrate such things a sbeing unimportant. This then leads to greed as they clamour for what they perceive will make them happy, which in turns leads to jealousy if they cannot attain such things and then to resentment of others who have such things.
I find that it is best to seek nothing and be grateful for whatever I do attain.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-10-19 17:29 ] |
peeta
Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 147
From: Scotland
PM |
Quote:
|
On 2005-10-19 18:28:55, scotsboyuk wrote:
I find that it is best to seek nothing and be grateful for whatever I do attain.
|
|
I agree with nearly everything you said except the last bit. Unless you seek out certain things that are important to you i don't think you are likely to attain them. Also, it is those dreams and aspirations that are for me the main point (although not everything there is) to life. Which means it's also important that those aspirations are well chosen and truly meaningful to you e.g. probably not money and possessions at the expense of all else (they have their place but too much importance is placed on them, generally)
(\_/)
( O.o )
( > < )
cheap thing no good, good thing no cheap |
duncanb99
Joined: Apr 30, 2002
Posts: 137
From: South London
PM |
Hi,
I've been trolling this thread for a while now and a lot of interesting points have been made. I have a question for PeterKay:
Some time ago you were pointing out inaccuracies/contradictions in the Bible. This is hardly surprising since the new testament was edited together from multiple sources written years after the events actually happened.
Someone else posted a similar list of contradictions about the Qu'ran which you neatly managed to sidestep. If the Qu'ran is unchanged and unchallengable word of Allah how do you reconcile these differences? Moreover, if Allah managed to change his mind during the lifetime of Mohammed, maybe he's changed his mind since. Maybe its ok to eat Pork nowadays we have refridgeration and improved hygene?
Whilst I can tell that you are smart and reasonable from your posts, I think the way you dismissed this list of inaccuraracies was slightly hypocritical. It's the kind of response that you always get from people who have invested a lot energy in some kind of belief system, only to be confronted with evidence that undermines some of their core beliefs - in this case the perfect nature of the Qu'ran.
I would be interested in what you have to say, but like other posters I find the repeated quoting of the Qu'ran slightly irrelevant to the main points of discussion. |
Gigs
Joined: Jan 19, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: The planet Snibertron!
PM, WWW
|
To a degree Gelfen.. I appreicate what you're saying, but by the same token I don't feel that they stack up to the same degree.
*IF* such a benevolent being is going to lay waste at the blink of an eye, then creating a paradise for people seems to be nothing more than a tease at best, and at worst we're lab mice for someones enjoyment. (Unless i'm wrong that would class god as a sadist in my book)
Life doesn't seem like such a prize when the many ways to end it seem to be the reason for having life in the first place. (presuming of course you follow the creationism theory and thus god planned all this and it's all to its will and design. (which, people, isn't an invite to turn this into a thread we've already rehashed  ))
"Oh look what you have, oh and i'll smite it at any time I feel a bit miffed, Sorry old chaps. Hope I don't loose this round of golf."
I personally don't equate god with being nature, nor natural disasters.
So to me it doesn't even out in that respect. While growing up and being taugt religion (we had it in school here in NZ) it seemed to me god was being offered more as a spiritual insurance policy than anything else.
|
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: The Ummah
PM, WWW
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-10-19 22:01:39, duncanb99 wrote:
Someone else posted a similar list of contradictions about the Qu'ran which you neatly managed to sidestep. If the Qu'ran is unchanged and unchallengable word of Allah how do you reconcile these differences? Moreover, if Allah managed to change his mind during the lifetime of Mohammed, maybe he's changed his mind since. Maybe its ok to eat Pork nowadays we have refridgeration and improved hygene?
|
|
If you want answers to the contradictions that were mentioned, please ask the questions Here and let us know the answers if possible. I am a student who knows the whole Quran by heart but the questions that were asked need to be asked to a higher level scholar who is available on the link.
The laws of Islam (shariah) cannot be changed, the life of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is still widely followed throughout the globe and whatever we have been forbidden to eat still remains the same. There are a minority of Muslims who go against the law but this is what the Quran states.
Verse 168 from Chapter 2 states:
O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, Lawful and good; and do not follow the footsteps of the evil one, for he is to you an avowed enemy.
Almighty Allah states in The Holy Quran that this book is the truth and that he will show the signs throught the earth. The believers of the book don't need any signs but the signs make their faith stronger.
Verse 53 from Chapter 41 states:
Soon will We show them our Signs in the furthest regions of the earth, and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Quran) is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?
Regarding the contradictions, The Holy Quran which has not changed since days of revelation is an inspiration for millions around the world and the contradictions (if there are any) have no effect on the new muslims which are reverting to the faith on a daily basis.
There cannot be any contradiction whatsoever between the established science and the Quran. This is because both the Universe and the Quran are creations of One God. The universe is the 'work' of God and the Quran is the 'word' of God. Science is about discovering Allah's laws in action in the Universe.
Another criterion to judge whether the Quran is from Allah or man's creation is given in Sura An-Nisa (Chapter 4, Verse 82):
Do they not reflect upon the Quran? Were it from anyone other than Allah they would have found many inconsistencies or discrepancies therein.
The Quran is a unique book for all times and at all levels. The objective of the Quran and its method of explanation is that of educating the minds and changing human attitude towards life. Its aim is to bring about a revolution inside the man himself, for after all, the external material civilization is the expression of the internal spiritual condition of man himself. We are confident that if Quran is understood with reason and knowledge, and the principles laid down by the Quran itself, it promises definite results.
|
Bambino
Joined: Sep 17, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Clow Kingdom
PM |
Sabbe Satta Sukhi Hontu
(May All Beings Released From Dukha) |
amnesia
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Doha, London, Tokyo, Shanghai
PM, WWW
|
What is Dukha?
|
Bambino
Joined: Sep 17, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Clow Kingdom
PM |
Dukha = a form sufferings |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
PM |
@gigs:
if you did RE then you should know that from a purely christian perspective adam and eve forfeited a life devoid of suffering and death, both for them and all their descendents, when they ate the forbidden fruit (or as my father would say, the first of many times a woman led a man astray). tragedy entered the world as the result of human sin from a global rather than personal perspective, and not due to "the fickle nature of god". if anything it is his unreasoning
as their "descendents" we inherit the legacy of that and all other sins, which is forgiven us in the next life (provided we repent) because of the sacrifice made by ol' JC. if you don't believe in a next life there is no way that it could possibly balance out. i also think there is a difference between actively smiting people and allowing them to be smote by natural forces - which gets back to my earlier post about people being too proud to admit defeat in the face of mother nature.
@peter:
i'm sorry, but that still seems like an attempt to dodge the question to some extent. if you are "a student who knows the whole Quran by heart" then surely you already know about these seemingly contradictory passages, which begs the question why didn't you ask about them during your studies?
if, as you said earlier, you do not believe they are contradictions can you please explain why you believe that? - specifically not in the general sense as you did above.
Quote:
| Do they not reflect upon the Quran? Were it from anyone other than Allah they would have found many inconsistencies or discrepancies therein. |
|
*what follows applies more or less equally to any religion, and i welcome comments from anyone*
this particular statement i can interpret in one of two ways: either if any inconsistency can be found in the quran (either philosophically or factually) it is immediately invalidated as the word of allah, or it is the word of allah and by definition will be interpreted as entirely consistent and definitive irrespective of any evidence to the contrary.
the former is a very ambitious and (to my view) unattainable test because, while it might be the word of allah it was still written by human hands under the influence of human minds limited by human understanding - and therefore by definition imperfect. personally i don't think there is a holistically consistent religious text on earth, but that's another argument. somebody somewhere will inevitably find an inconsistency or error.
the latter is a very dangerous position, because it ultimately precludes two things:
1. critical appraisal of the religious text - once any text is accepted as an absolute, it becomes something which is swallowed verbatim without any thoughts on the possibility of human error or critical analysis. yes god/allah may well be perfect, but his agents and adherents on earth are not. no matter how simple the message, it still needs to be interpreted before it can be written and after it has been written so that it can be spread. that interpretation is rooted in the customs and culture of the audience it is delivered to. ultimately that initial interpretation, limited by the range of human understanding at the time, becomes doctcrine, which in turn becomes unchallengable because the doctrine is given the same weight as the text. a criticism of the doctrine becomes a criticism of the text and vice versa. this leads to my second point...
2. the possibility that the author of the message (in this case god/allah) will influence the way we interpret that text in future generations - the freedom of religious interpretation and evolution is lost because the text and associated doctrine is deemed perfect for all time. the message may be perfect for all time, but the text itself should always be viewed as a human attempt to repeat and propagate that message. the way a particular text was intepreted 1000 or even 100 years ago may not be the same way it was intended to be interpreted today. as the plethora of human knowledge grows, so should the interpretation of any religious text be re-evaluated. that doesn't mean shoe-horning things in as it's convenient, or ignoring selected passages for your own comfort, but stripping back all the pre- and misconceptions (and oft-times ignorance) upon which the current doctrine is based and starting from scratch with the view to establishing a more complete understanding. mohammed may be the last prophet of allah, but that doesn't necessarily make him the last person whom allah offered guidance.
_________________
Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore 
[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2005-10-20 02:59 ] |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
PM, WWW
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-10-19 18:46:06, peeta wrote:
I agree with nearly everything you said except the last bit. Unless you seek out certain things that are important to you i don't think you are likely to attain them. Also, it is those dreams and aspirations that are for me the main point (although not everything there is) to life. Which means it's also important that those aspirations are well chosen and truly meaningful to you e.g. probably not money and possessions at the expense of all else (they have their place but too much importance is placed on them, generally)
|
|
I think you have misunderstood what I meant, which probably wasn't helped much in that I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
I don't mean to say that one shouldn't have goals in life, but I find that when one doesn't seek material reward or attempt to attain things, one is much more grateful and appreciative of those things one does attain. It's the expectancy that I find to be negative. One may expect that going to university will allow one to get a good job, it doesn't always work out that way. One may expect that marrying someone will mean one is happy for the rest of one's life with that person, again that doesn't always work out.
Part of Chapter 29 of the Tao Te Ching says:
Quote:
| Those who wish to change the world
According with their desire
cannot succeed.
The world is shaped by the Way;
It cannot be shaped by the self.
Trying to change it, you damage it;
Trying to possess it, you lose it. |
|
In other words; what will be will be and one should accept that there are some things beyond one's control. That isn't to say that one can't make a difference, but one should also accept one's place in the world and realise that expecting or simply craving something isn't enough to attain that something.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-10-20 04:22 ] |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
PM |
@scots: does that mean that one will not be attempting to attain a w900i then? 
|
whizkidd
Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: India
PM, WWW
|
 
T230 >> T610 >> Ngage QD >> N73 >> N85 >> Omnia HD >> And countless other review units |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
PM, WWW
|
@gelfen
In the words of Yoda, "Do or do not. There is no try." I know that I shall have a W900 so there is no attempt.
Whilst I'm the subject of Star Wars I thought I would post this.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-10-20 04:47 ] | |
|
Access the forum with a mobile phone via esato.mobi
|
Posted: 2005-10-19 09:35
