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so who is religous here? |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: The Ummah
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On 2005-10-17 20:07:02, solidsingh wrote:
theres a conspiracy theory that america have technology to change the weather and that they caused the pakistan earthquake
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brownlad007
Joined: Jul 22, 2005
Posts: 264
From: The Punjab, Wolverhampton UK.
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On 2005-10-17 20:07:02, solidsingh wrote:
theres a conspiracy theory that america have technology to change the weather and that they caused the pakistan earthquake
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some people have colour imaginations |
solidsingh
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: india
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not saying i believe it, jus wat a few people told me
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kk.226
Joined: Nov 04, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: London
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It's not completley true saying that natural events such as earthquakes etc are COMPLETLEY down to god... I mean if it wasn't for us emiting our toxic gasses, and the way we produce waste and live our lifes etc ...scientists say that we'd be in an ice age right now.
We are all unconciously contributing to most of what is going on...
Hey... lets not throw the "Conspiracies" completley out of the window... I know they're hard to belive but take for instance:
The army has had the technology to have small batteries to last years on end for a long time ... however we appear to have the "newest" technology in which we can use our batteries in consumer products for only days on end. This is new technology hasnt been revealed for a reason (people would only need to buy 1 set of batteries to last for great length of times putting compaines out of business as they won't sell as many) and reasons such like.
So not everything that is currently achieveable is made public... it's for a reason.
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: The Ummah
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Verse 13 from Chapter 10 states:
Generations before you We destroyed when they did wrong: their apostles came to them with clear-signs, but they would not believe! thus do We requite those who sin!
The above verse tells us what happened to the people before us, they stopped following their messenger and then Almighty Allah destroyed them. In this is a lesson for the world today - If you do not follow his messenger and his commandments the wait for the punishment which today we see happening every few months. May Allah save us all from his wrath and punishment, Amen.
Verses 21 and 22 from Chapter 40 states:
Do they not travel through the earth and see what was the End of those before them? They were even superior to them in strength, and in the traces they have left in the land: but Allah did call them to account for their sins, and none had they to defend them against Allah.
That was because there came to them their apostles with Clear Signs, but they rejected them: So Allah called them to account: for He is Full of Strength, Strict in Punishment.
Beware of his punishment people, he can destroy a whole country in a matter of minutes, he can punish thousands of lives in seconds, he says 'Be' and its done.
Many of you may think i am talking rubbish here, but just think for a second of the recent events which are before us. Some say 'mother nature' did it, what is mother nature? It's God almighty who decides what happens on his earth and he punishes whom he wishes and forgives whom he wishes.
If he can cause earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes and tornados in far parts of the earth - he is definately capable of doing the same here in th UK if he wishes. The earthquake that has just happened is a wake up call for mankind, take heed from what happens before it's too late.
May Almighty Allah forgive us all and guide us on the straight path. Amen.
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kk.226
Joined: Nov 04, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: London
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So your saying the earthquakes in Pakistan/India etc. WAS a punishment or COULD HAVE BEEN a punishment?
If you think is WAS can you say why? I mean in my eyes they haven't really done much wrong... but then regretfully I haven't followed much about the countries and their politics.
Or was that area hit, as a punishment to the way WE behave in our countries? If this is the case, then should WE ourselfs have been punished and OUR countries destroyed? As it would be wrong to punish the innocent.
Sorry, i'm just trying to figure out what your trying to say...
PS: i'm not trying to argue... just genuinly interested
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@Peter
It's interesting that you should attribute such events to God. How would a Muslim interpret such events? For example, in saying that natural disaster may be punishment for mankind's actions, how would that fit in with the deaths of innocents because of those natural disasters?
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
Gigs
Joined: Jan 19, 2004
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From: The planet Snibertron!
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Don't be offended by this PK but that last post makes you look like some sort of street preacher with a "Look at me i'm right, you're not" attitude.
I certainly wouldn't attribute earth quakes to your god. I grew up in a region that constantly had earthquakes, surely 1 of the 80000 people there had a good bone in their body.
If however your god is all the bad things then it must be every single natural phenomenon known. Gavity, light, wind, rain, the conversion process of water into snow, o-zone, barametric pressure etc.
If you'd said it was your opinion that those things are its doing then I'd have just shrugged it off, but that's not how your post reads imo.
Isn't paganism built around the fact that "mother nature" is god?
Surely if such huge disasters are "Gods Wrath" then what counts as his reward? A sunny day at the beach? Just being allowed to live? I'm sorry that I cannot buy at all.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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@Gigs
An interesting point, as I mentioned in my own post I wonder how the deaths of those who are good can be reconciled with the view of such events as being divine wrath.
The Tao Te Ching says of Nature:
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It treats all things impartially. |
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I hold to this view, Nature is indeed impartial, it will not stop the lion from killing nor will it prevent the lion from eventually dying itself. An earthquake can kill thousands of people, some of whom may be saints and some of whom may be terrorists; if it is there time to die then Nature does not dinstinguish between them.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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from a christian perspective, all human sufferring stems from the "original sin" resulting in adam and eve's expulsion from the garden of eden. human kind was originally intended to live without suffering, but by taking the path of satan (i.e. eating the forbidden fruit) adam and eve allowed pain and death into their lives. hence, we are all inheritors of that legacy.
another christian philosophy is that earthly or wordly suffering is transitory compared with the joy of eternal life in heaven.
Why does God allow people to suffer?
i'm not saying i buy it all, but it's one christian perspective that tries to offer a variety of rationales based on interpreting biblical passages. it should be noted that the bible does not really give explicit reasons why suffering is allowed to continue, but frequently the suffering of others is used as an object lesson to instill piety and righteousness in the audience.
EDIT:
@scots: it's interesting to note that the human race is rarely humble. when we become vicitims of a natural disaster we tend to blame anyone and anything but ourselves, whereas the real fault often lies in our choice of location. for instance, the catastrophe of hurricane katrina was inevitable but nobody would ever have considered moving somewhere safe, preferring to believe "it won't happen to us". i'm not familiar with the seismic character of pakistan, but i suspect it wasn't the first earthquake to ever occur there.
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Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore 
[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2005-10-18 04:36 ] |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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From: The Ummah
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On 2005-10-18 03:49:00, scotsboyuk wrote:
@Peter
It's interesting that you should attribute such events to God. How would a Muslim interpret such events? For example, in saying that natural disaster may be punishment for mankind's actions, how would that fit in with the deaths of innocents because of those natural disasters?
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Verse 284 from Chapter 2 explains more in detail:
To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, Allah Calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth, for Allah hath power over all things.
The verse above states clearly that Almighty Allah punishes whom he wishes and whether that is an innocent person or a saint, what he knows we do not know and may never get to know. He has power over all things and can do whatever he wishes to do. Innocent lives are always tangled to natural disasters but as to why they are - Only he knows best.
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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From: The Ummah
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On 2005-10-18 04:34:36, Gigs wrote:
Don't be offended by this PK but that last post makes you look like some sort of street preacher with a "Look at me i'm right, you're not" attitude.
I certainly wouldn't attribute earth quakes to your god. I grew up in a region that constantly had earthquakes, surely 1 of the 80000 people there had a good bone in their body.
If however your god is all the bad things then it must be every single natural phenomenon known. Gavity, light, wind, rain, the conversion process of water into snow, o-zone, barametric pressure etc.
If you'd said it was your opinion that those things are its doing then I'd have just shrugged it off, but that's not how your post reads imo.
Isn't paganism built around the fact that "mother nature" is god?
Surely if such huge disasters are "Gods Wrath" then what counts as his reward? A sunny day at the beach? Just being allowed to live? I'm sorry that I cannot buy at all.
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Thats your view and i can see where you are coming from, however i am talking about what Islam states and what us Muslims believe. We believe that all things done on this planet are by Almighty Allahs wisdom and knowledge.
Verse 59 from Chapter 6 states his Power:
With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness or depths of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry green or withered, but is inscribed in a record clear to those who can read.
'Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge', that is one powerful statement by Almighty Allah, if he knows about every leaf drop on this planet then what does he not know about his creation us humans?
Us Muslims do believe that every natural disaster is by Allahs will and as i mentioned before he can punish who he wants to. This is a muslims perspective and i for one totally agree with it.
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whizkidd
Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: India
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| We believe that all things done on this planet are by Almighty Allahs wisdom and knowledge. |
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@peterkay, does that mean the power of Allah is limited only to this planet?
Kidding...
Quote:
| Verse 59 from Chapter 6 states his Power:
With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness or depths of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry green or withered, but is inscribed in a record clear to those who can read. |
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One more doubt, isn't The Koran the words of Allah written down by followers of Prophet Mohammed?
But, That statement of yours clearly mentions Allah as a separate entity from the person who said it.
I mean How can Allah mention about himself as "he".
Does that mean those are not words of Allah but of someone who believes in him??
Or maybe Prophet Mohammed himself...
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[ This Message was edited by: whizkidd on 2005-10-18 09:18 ] |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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i believe the quran is meant to be the words of mohammed as written by certain of his followers.
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whizkidd
Joined: May 14, 2004
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From: India
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@Gelfen, found this on a SITE...
Now the question is, who wrote Quran or who was the author of Quran?
Hadith tells us that Muhammad was illiterate and was unable to read or write. So of course Muhammad did not write Quran. Muslims claim that Muhammad dictated the whole Quran to his followers and many of them memorized the Quranic verses word by word and later they wrote it down. The bottom line is that no one knows for sure who wrote the Quran.
After the death of Muhammad there was a time when Uthman the third Caliph of Islam ordered to burn all the copies of Quran except one. It was believed that there were variations in text and recitation practice of Quran at that time and so Uthman took this step. According to Quran and Hadith, Muhammad was the last prophet of Islam. So Uthman was not a prophet and we do not know whether he kept the valid and original Quran or destroyed it? We also do not know how he determined which one was the correct version of Quran?
Muslims claim that Quran was directly given by Allah and Sheikh Ahmed Deedat the Muslim Scholar and other Muslims have claimed that Quran is the word of God because it was written in first person speech unlike Bible, where third person speech is used. But the very first chapter of Quran is written in the third person speech.
Surah 1:1-7. "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; Most Gracious, Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray."
This is not the only one example but there are many Surahs which are written in third person speech. So if we take the word of Muslim Scholars, Quran is not the word of God.
Peterkay could explain this better...
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Posted: 2005-10-17 23:10
