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The Gulf War 2 Thread - Stick to the topic this time. |
axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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America does want to control the oil for itself no one in their right mind is going to believe that they want to out in the hands of responsible people..And America will never take on North korea coz they are nuke power and a really adversary that can stand against the u.s..So america lets say is a bit frightened..And they don't speak arabic.the other nations just dont have any oil im afraid..and America is letting the Genocide against the Palestinians go on.Thats where the bush nazi part comes into play..
Who ever told you that muslims nations are pleading for American help and assistance??..Majority of muslims i know hate america and for what its doing in the middle east and they just want them to get out and never return.Arab and Muslim society has existed long before there was any America,they took care of themselves then,I'm sure they can now.Middle East was in relative peace until first the British invaded and started playing with the fates of Arab..Majority of problems caused in the middle east were by the British and Americans.
Palestine was taken away from the Palestinians and turned into some other country.The west has always messed with Arabs and then we wonder why muslims hate us?..I wonder why?
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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firstly, i meant reasonable according to the US definition (i.e. someone willing to trade with them). they don't want to control the oil politically, only economically - which is what they do best. i've made the same point about nth korea myself, and i think there's enough blame on both sides of the palesine-israel affair to create a medium sized continent. i also agree that the US should be active in righting all the world's wrongs, along with every other nation, but i also understand it's not as simple as you seem to be trying to make out. there a various political realities that assert themselves in every situation, so it becomes about (very) long term goals rather than immediate progress.
secondly, i didn't mean they were asking the US for help. i meant help in general. in addition, i am making a significant distinction between muslim states who want to be left alone and muslim (or non-muslim) individuals in some muslim states who want to live free from tyranny. those issues exist, otherwise australia wouldn't have the border control and refugee issues it does (that is a can of worms i don't want to get into).
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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@axxxr
With the greatest of respect I believe that you are being very naive with regard to certain issues and you make some very broad generalisations that don't really stand up when one looks at them properly.
The situation in North Korea is indeed very different to the situation in the Middle East, but you are quite wrong in saying that the U.S. would never attack North Korea; in fact the situation is quite to the contrary. The Bush administration is filled with right wing hawks who think it best to attack North Korea and end the communist regime there, but there are several factors preventing this from happening. The first is China, North Korea only exists in its current state because of Chinese support, whether that be economical, militarily or political. The second factor is the U.S.'s allies in the region, Japan and South Korea, neither want a war in which both their nations stand a very good chance of coming under attack, possibly from nuclear weaponry. The third factor is Russia; again it doesn't want a major war in the region. The fourth factor is the counterbalancing effects of the dove sin the Bush administration.
We should be under absolutely no illusions, however, that if the situation becomes serious enough the U.S. will not attack North Korea, this is the very thing North Korea fears most. An American pre-emptive strike on North Korea would wipe out North Korea's cities, infrastructure and nuclear capability before the North Koreans had time to react. North Korea has at most a few nuclear weapons, if any at all, whilst the U.S. has enough nuclear weaponry to eradicate all life on this planet many times over, when it comes down to it, North Korea doesn't stand a chance if the U.S. decides that attack is the only course of action. This view is supported by the fact that North Korea wants to remain in negotiations with the U.S. and is actively seeking a treaty with the U.S. The North Koreans know that the only thing keeping their country from being attacked are the good intentions of neighbouring countries and political pressure within the U.S. itself.
The Middle East has always been embroiled in wars and disputes, long before the British or Americans became involved. In my opinion peace cannot be achieved by the Israelis and Palestinians on their own, it needs to be imposed upon them. I say this because neither side has been able to live with the other, in peace, for any length of time during the past fifty odd years. Extremist Islamic terrorism ultimately springs from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and it isn’t going to go away until this conflict is resolved.
The Arab world has to learn to accept that Israel is here to stay and that it is not going to be destroyed as long as America supports it, of course Israel also needs to realise that the Palestinians have as much right to their own state as the Israelis do. America should use its power to impose a peace treaty upon the Middle East, by doing so it would ensure that American lives are saved and that terrorism is attacked on a fundamental level.
We must also realise that many Arab countries are not democracies and that the people are not free to choose their own rulers, they have policies imposed upon them and it is often the case that power hungry rulers will use the U.S. and the West in general as scapegoats for their own shortcomings. The West can only be blamed for so much, if the extremists are allowed to whip up more and more hatred for the West then the consequences will be dire indeed. If hatred for the West reaches the point where open state sponsored terrorism against Western nations is being instigated then it could lead to a war between the West and the Arab world, a war which the Arab world could never win and would ultimately lead to the deaths of millions.
This ‘doomsday scenario’ can be prevented very easily, by both the Western powers and Muslims nations around the world. The Muslim nations need to clamp down on terrorism and extremism and also allow their citizens greater freedom and opportunity. The Western nations need to use their wealth and power to promote peace and better living standards for those in poorer countries. The best weapon in the fight against terrorism is to take away the base ideology of hatred.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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@scotsboy: well said.
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Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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I also would love to see that idiot Mugabe overthrown and North Korea's hardline regime overthrown.
Many people in Iran (not to mention the world) want to see the end of the Clerics that run their country, but have said categorically that they don't want the US or anyone else invading their country to do it; they want to get rid of their hated leaders themselves without seeing a foreign power driving tanks up their main street!
I have to admit @axxxr mate that I find the idea that the UN is basically run by the CIA hard to swallow - but do agree they've probably carried out a lot of covert surveillance a bit like our MI6 were on Kofi Annan before being caught with their pants down (MI6 that is, not Kofi!  )
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of people in these middle-eastern states probably haven't ever tasted freedom, so don't know what it's like. To draw a mobile phone parallel, I never really thought about using a phone like a P800 till I actually got hold of one and thought 'this is the way forward!' Speaking of which I should be getting mine back from CPW today. Yey!! Sorry, back to business....
On the other hand, it could be argued that life here in the UK/US isn't much better for different reasons - We can say what we want about our leaders, but we're forever looking over our shoulder for teenage muggers high on some shite wanting your mobile phone to sell for his next hit or he'll cut you into ribbons. All whilst the police and rule-makers are too busy catching people going 5mph over the speed limit and trying to ban words like 'blackboard' for being racist instead of catching criminals and helping to uphold moral and family values it's become so unfashionable to behold.
I've just read that last bit back to myself, it makes me sound about 56, not 26!  
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@Sammy_boy
I am in agreement with you, especially about the need for the overthrow of tyrannical regimes, but by their own people rather than foreign intervention. There are always going to be some cases where foreign intervention is necessary, North Korea being one such example.
The main problem with North Korea is that the regime there is completely obsessed with staying in power and would almost certainly use every means at its disposal to do so. I remember watching a BBC documentary on North Korea and it was appalling to see how the North Koreans are living. They are taught that it was America who started the Korean War and that America is intent on destroying their country, only their nuclear weaponry prevents this; one North Korean general who was asked about the idea that it was the North who started the Korean War became angry and started to get quite aggressive towards the journalist asking the question. This one example tells us a great deal about the mentality of the regime.
Here in the West we have a large number of do-gooders who will moan about everything under the Sun, but won't actually come up with any sensible or practical ideas on how to solve problems. The recent war in Iraq shows this state of affairs very nicely in my opinion. Many do-gooders would scream that there were human rights abuses in Iraq and that the regime there was oppressing the Iraqi people, but they categorically refused to even contemplate that armed force be used to end the regime in Iraq. Quite how they thought Saddam could be toppled I’m not sure, perhaps by asking him nicely?
Before I move on I should state that I am not categorising 'do-gooders' with those people who genuinely felt that the war in Iraq was wrong, not that they were anti-war just for the sake of it, but because they felt that it wasn't necessary and they had sound reasoning to back up their beliefs. I am also not in any way drawing in the reasoning for the war, whether it be moral reasons or WMDs etc I am merely concerned with demonstrating how a particular group of people in the West bemoan Western values and ideas, but contribute very little themselves.
Another example is peace protestors here in Britain who camp outside military bases and installations. Whilst I very much respect genuine held convictions that war is wrong (I share those very same convictions) I also think it extremely hypocritical of many of these activists to bemoan Western culture and values whilst also claiming benefits and other aid from the system that they so hate. It is this sort of person who is the first to run crying that 'something should be done' whenever something bad happens on their doorstep; then the Army and the rest of the Armed Forces don't seem quite so bad after all.
Western society has been falling in on itself for some time now and the type of person I have outlined above is one of the prime reasons we find ourselves sin the state we are in. I know many people who are anti-war and who believe in a less capitalistic society, but they manage to advocate their views whilst also holding down a job, contributing to the general health of the nation and everyone who live sin it and refrain from smashing shop windows or defacing memorials to millions of people who selflessly sacrificed their lives so that we might live in freedom. Too many people don’t want to do anything nay more, people have become lazy and dependent on the state for everything, they feel that it is their right to receive money for sitting on their behind and not bothering to look for a job, whilst many people who really do deserve such money have to make do with less.. The West is full of people ready to criticise and blame everything that is wrong in the world on the West, instead of actually doing something about it.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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I suspect North Korea is a state where the people may never overthrow their leaders, simply because they have been brainwashed so much by their own regime, and see their leader almost as a 'god' and therefore unfallible (and therefore beyond question!), which of course is all rubbish.
btw, please don't think that I'm one of those bleeding heart liberals into political correctness and being pathologically scared of offending anyone, as I'm not! I think that perhaps more people do need to stand up for what they believe is right here in the west, and not simply grin and bear it. The question is what to do, apart from plot a coup against the government and the establishment? 
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@Sammy_boy
Having read previous posts from you I don't think you are a bleeding heart liberal.  I do agree that people should stand up for what they believe in, but we must also do so in a constructive manner. I see absolutely no merit in vandalising property and wrecking businesses as a means to political change.
The North Korean situation is very sad because of the reasons you stated, but human nature being what it is, the North Korean people are not all going to take things lying down. From what I have seen of North Korea there are enough people who know what is really happening in the world to make it possible to form opposition to the regime there, unfortunately they have almost no help in doing this.
The West should be using its power to topple tyrants all over the world, a more peaceful and secure world will ultimately save lives in the long wrong. Mugabe in Zimbabwe is a prime example, without wanting to appear a war monger or too conservative, the international community should have kicked him out long ago, he has done nothing but inflict misery upon his people.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
ADT0079
Joined: Oct 08, 2003
Posts: 100
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That was well put and i agree with you 100 percent Also Axxxr You Are very one sided and narrow minded All i can say is stick to the reveiws on Electronic's....And maybee u need to watch a couple more Micheal Moore Movies becuase u seem to Hate The United States And Are Current Goverment as much as he does....... |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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I simply cannot understand why people seem to put the blame for all the world's problems at the feet of the U.S. The other nations of the world are just as much to blame for the problems we face. Take Mugabe for instance, why does South Africa continue to support him despite the fact that the ordinary people of Zimbabwe are suffering so much? Without South African support I doubt whether the U.S. or Britain or anyone would need to intervene as Mugabe's regime would implode.
It is all too easy to blame America when we should in fact be looking at the real causes and solutions to the problems we face. The West takes too much blame for the world's problems, I hear people denouncing our values and our intentions, but not our money, or the food we send them, or the protection we afford them when their governments turn on them.
Having said that the West must also realise that it cannot police the world and that it needs to do more to distribute wealth and freedom to the rest of the world, not every country wants to be a democracy, but we can at least allow the people of each country to decide that for themselves and not impose our own beliefs and values upon them. Most people around the world share the same basic desires; to live in peace and to have the freedom to live their lives as they choose, unfortunately this cannot happen if the Western nations don’t realise that not everyone wants democracy, equally it cannot happen if the non-Western world continues to blame the West for all its problems instead of trying to sort them out.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
ADT0079
Joined: Oct 08, 2003
Posts: 100
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@scotsboyuk=You said ""Having said that the West must also realise that it cannot police the world and that it needs to do more to distribute wealth and freedom to the rest of the world""
It would be nice to send Wealth but with a hostile envorment IE:Zimbawee who would u disprese the wealth to if the goverment will take it for themselves and not for there people....As for the Freedom i dont see how it is possible when the people are in fear for there lives to only way to do that is have a presence in any giving country tthat we are trying to Spread Freedom in,And we just dont have enough Man power for that to work...
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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Let just get one thing Straight guys..I do not hate America on the contrary i respect its freedom,values..Would love the culture if they had one..ooops sorry only joking  .My hatred is with the current president.He alone has created more problems for the world then anyone can imagine.As soon hes kicked out of office we can all live in relative peace the better.The problem with us british is that we hate you americans for small things like you screwed up our language.and took all our chipies away and turned em into macdonalds.and you call us your cousins.which were are not.But hey i can live with that.Its when you want to introduce your idea of Democracy in countries that dont want or need it thats bothers me.Its like i said before and i will always say it.Respect other peoples culture and religion and way of life and you will get the same in return.Peace Guys!
Just to add a Small footnote to this:
Fresh News
Former US diplomats say Bush should be ousted in election
WASHINGTON, June 16 (Xinhuanet) -- More than two dozen former US diplomats and military leaders on Wednesday strongly criticized the foreign policy of President George W. Bush, saying he should not be re-elected in the November election.
"Bush adopted an overbearing approach to America's role in the world, relying upon military might and righteousness, insensitive to the concerns of traditional friends and allies, and disdainful of the United Nations," the group said in a statement.
The group, called Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change,noted its members include Democrats and Republicans who have "served every president since Harry S. Truman" in an effort to underscore that their concerns are bipartisan.
At a news conference here, group spokeswoman Phyllis Oakley said international respect for the United States is now "crumblingunder an administration blinded by ideology and a callous indifference to the realities of the world around it." Oakley was an assistant secretary of state for intelligence and research in the Clinton administration.
Charles Freeman, a career diplomat who has served both Republican and Democratic administrations, said the Bush administration complicated the situation in Iraq by insults to allies, the indifference to the views of partners in the region, and the general disdain for the United Nations and international organizations.
William Harrop, a career diplomat who retired in 1994 after 40 years of foreign service, said: "Obviously we think Senator (John)Kerry should be elected, but we are not here to speak for him. We are here to say there must be a change."
State Department spokesman Richard Boucher rejected the notion the United States has acted without consulting its allies. "We went to the United Nations on Iraq," he said. Enditem
via:
Reuters
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[ This Message was edited by: axxxr on 2004-06-17 03:44 ] |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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@ADT0079
The West is all to often looked to, to solve the world's problems; if it does it is criticised for intervening where it shouldn't, if it doesn't then it is criticised for not doing more to help. I would propose that regional powers should help to solve problems where they can e.g. South Africa can do a great deal to oust Mugabe and restore peace and prosperity to Zimbabwe, the West doesn't necessarily have to be directly involved. So too China could stop supporting North Korea and there would be little need of Western military intervention as the regime would, in all likelihood, implode.
Anti-Western sentiments have spread around the world and people are now blaming the West for every perceived problem in the world, it is certainly responsible for some problems, but I really do feel that other nations must start to take responsibility for their own actions.
@axxxr
I am also not a fan of George W. Bush and I would certainly like John Kerry to win the next U.S. election, but to be fair to Bush he has done some good things. As much as I detest his far right policies and attitude, I have to say that I am glad he hasn't shied away from fighting terrorism or caved into terrorist demands, however, this would probably have been the same result should Al Gore have been President.
I find it very sad that people attack the U.S. for no other reason than that they feel superior to Americans; at least you have provided a sound reason for your current lack of trust in the U.S.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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@Axxxr & Scotsboy:
I too am not anti-american per se, like Axxxr I also dislike Bush and his policies, but not the US and it's way of life. Again, the US and what it stands for is certainly admirable, but I think that the 'American way' is pushed a bit too hard in the media, films and US-based websites, and other countries' traditions and ways of life are slowly been eroded by endless films, TV series, music videos etc. coming from the US and being beamed into the living rooms of families in countries around the globe.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with the American way of life, it's values, traditions and quirks, it's just that it shouldn't replace the ways of life in other countries. People in those countries are bound to get a bit pissed when everything they stand for is slowly eroded due to globalisation and the US (and perhaps to a much lesser extent the UK?) domination of things like movies, TV series, the internet, and products.
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@Sammy_boy
I agree with you, but with some reservations. If people don't want their culture to be erode by foreign values then they should try to protect it, we are actually very good at doing that in Britain, chiefly because we absorb other cultures very easily and alter our existing culture accordingly; we have done this for millennia.
The concern over the dominance of American values is no different to the concern over the domination of British value sin the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, or of Roman values during the Roman Empire; the dominant power always comes under criticism. American values are on the whole very good and we have adopted quite a few of them in Britain as have other nations, but I would agree that we should do whatever we can to preserve our cultural identities.
We should also remember that a lot of the world is very Westernised because much of the planet was controlled by Western powers for centuries, so there are going to be areas of the world that want Western values and areas that do not. The Middle East is an area that the West didn't control for very long, relative to South America, Africa, or even parts of the Far East, so it is natural that they should be less inclined to adopt Western values. This isn't a bad thing, but it is a problem if we insist on forcing Western values upon the Middle East.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC | |
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Posted: 2004-06-16 04:52
