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Blair: 'God will be my judge on Iraq' |
slattery69
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: north east england
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On 2006-03-04 19:06:18, amnesia wrote:
thats the thing.
I wish to God that governments around the world (it doesn't matter what country it is) actually listened to the people when they say they're a democracy and don't blame their actions on God.
In my eyes, God lights the way, but it's the person who chooses the path.
I personally think saying God guided him in doing what he did is wrong, not only because it makes it seem as a West VS. East, but also because England itself is one of the most international country's in the world.
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thats possible one of the best responses i ve read on esato in a long while esp in a religous topic.
i couldnt agree with you more esp the part about the path each person walks there own path and they and they alone are responsible for how they walk the path and the way they touch others lives on the walk | |
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joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
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Perhaps all leaders of countries should not be of an religion. Maybe that way they cant say stuff like "god told me to do it" and hopefully not be biased towards any religion (although saying that if there not of religion they could simple be biased agaisnt all religions). |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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On 2006-03-04 17:54:56, dealer3 wrote:
The Worlds Major Religions Changes In the last half century...
Confucianism & Taoism decrease 13%
350,600,000
305,000,000
Judaism decrease 4%
15,630,000
15,000,000
Christianity increase 47%
682,400,000
1,000,000,000
Eastern Orthodox decrease 36%
144,000,000
092,000,000
Protestant increase 57%
206,900,000
324,000,000
Catholic increase 70%
331,500,000
565,000,000
Buddhism increase 63%
150,180,000
245,000,000
Hinduism increase 117%
230,150,000
500,000,000
Shintoism increase 152%
25,000,000
63,000,000
Islam increase 235%
209,020,000
700,000,000
World Almanac and Book of Facts, 1935
and Readers Digest Almanac and Yearbook 1983
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According to the sources you site, your figures are twenty years out of date. It is interesting if one wishes to examine the period 1935 to 1983, but these sources don't say anything about religious growth today.
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Muslims in Asia (1996) 1,022,692,000 (30%)
Muslims in Africa (1996) 426,282,000 (59%)
Total Number of Muslims on the Earth (1996) 1,482,596,925
Total Number of People on the Earth (1996) 5,771,939,007
Percentage of Muslims (1996) 26%
Islam annual growth rate (1994-1995) from U.N. 6.40%
Christianity growth rate (1994-1995) from U.N. 1.46%
Total Number of Muslims on the Earth (1998) 1,678,442,000
Expected Number of Muslims on the Earth (2000) 1,902,095,000
This figures below shows the growth of Islam:
North America 25%
Africa 2.15%
Asia 12.57%
Europe 142.35%
Latin America -4.73%
Australia 257.01%
Among every four humans in the world, one of them is Muslim. Muslims have increased by over 235 percent in the last fifty years up to nearly 1.6 billion.
By comparison, Christians have increased by only 47 percent, Hinduism, 117 percent, and Buddhism by 63 percent.
Islam is the second largest religious group in France, Great Britain and USA (Muslims in USA are 10 millions and Jews are 6 millions).
The number of the total population has been taken from The CIA World's Facts Book.
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Your figures are meaningless without being put into context. Anyone can quote numbers for just about anything, but without some sort of explanation they are just numbers.
Let's examine the different components of your statistics:
First of all the number of Muslims in Africa and Asia and the projected number of Muslims in the world. The figures you cite are hardly surprising since both Africa and Asia contain the majority of the world's Muslim nations. It is also unsurprising that the number of Muslims is growing faster than the number of Christians since many Christian countries have low population growth rates e.g. most of Europe whilst many Muslim nations have high population growth rates e.g. many African countries.
A far more interesting statistic to exmaine would be the comparative growth rates of religions based upon the number of people conciously choosing to adopt that religion as their own rather than simply being born into it. For example, the 142.35% growth rate given for Islam in Europe, is that mostly due to native Europeans converting to Islam or is it predominantly a result of Muslim immigrants settling in Europe?
Your figures for the growth rates of Christianity (47%), Hinduism (117%) and Buddhism (63%) are based upon the earlier data you gave, which rests upon sources from 1935 and 1983. More recent data (from adherents.com via the BBC) gives the numbers for each major religion as follows:
Christianity 2.1 billion
Islam 1.3 billion
Atheist/Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic 1.1 billion
Hinduism 900 million
Chinese traditional religion 394 million
Buddhism 376 million
Primal-indigenous 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic 100 million
Sikhism 23 million
The CIA World Factbook gives the following statistics as of 2004:
Christians 33.03% (of which Roman Catholics 17.33%, Protestants 5.8%, Orthodox 3.42%, Anglicans 1.23%), Muslims 20.12%, Hindus 13.34%, Buddhists 5.89%, Sikhs 0.39%, Jews 0.23%, other religions 12.61%, non-religious 12.03%, atheists 2.36% (2004 est.)
Your figure of Islam accounting for approximately 25% of the world's population would therefore seem to be somewhat exagerated. Furthermore your figures do not extrapolate on the geographical spread of Islam, is it concentrated in certain areas or spread across the globe in a more or less even pattern?
One of the chief reasons there are large Muslim populations in the U.S., UK and France is because of immigration. The UK received a large number of immigrants following the decline of the British Empire and many of these immigrants were from Pakistan and Bangladesh, both of which are Muslim countries. France has also received a large number of immigrants from its old colonies, notably Algeria, which is a Muslim country. The U.S. receives immigrants from all over the world and since Islam is the world's second biggest religion it is hardly surprising that a large number of them should be Muslims.
As before, what would be more interesting would be to examine the composition of religious faiths in relation to those converting rather than simply being brought up with a particular faith.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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On 2006-03-04 19:06:18, amnesia wrote:
thats the thing.
I wish to God that governments around the world (it doesn't matter what country it is) actually listened to the people when they say they're a democracy and don't blame their actions on God.
In my eyes, God lights the way, but it's the person who chooses the path.
I personally think saying God guided him in doing what he did is wrong, not only because it makes it seem as a West VS. East, but also because England itself is one of the most international country's in the world.
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As much as I am not a fan of Blair I think it is perhaps important to note that he was somewhat reluctant to talk about religion in relation to politics. Blair obviously has his own religious beliefs and no doubt they help to guide his decisions, but I did notice that he was not going into any great detail. If one compares this with Bush who said something along the lines of the Iraq war being a mission from God, it demonstrates, in my opinion, that Blair is not looking to link his policies with the divine.
I watched the interview and as far as I remember his comments were something in the order of God being his judge. I don't think there was anything terribly controversial in what he said, he wasn't saying that he had divine guidance to go to war or that God spoke to him, etc. Having said that, I do think it would have been better for him to not mention religion at all when talking about politics, certainly not in a public forum.
I think what Blair, and other politicians have to remember, as you pointed out, is that it is the people they have to listen to. Britian is a multicultural society and I believe that any Prime Minister, no matter what his faith, has to recognise the highest authority in the land as being the people.
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[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-03-05 22:48 ] |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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From: The Ummah
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Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Why does this fact hurt so many people? Just read the Guiness book of world records each year!
It's a fact, whether you like it or not.
Thank (God) Allah, i am a Muslim.
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solidsingh
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
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From: india
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i dont recall anyone posting that the fact hurts them
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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Neither do I.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
thami
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
Posts: 169
From: UK
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Me too  any way there just trying to figure out weather its the case or not.BUT Now that you have mentioned the Guiness book of world records i now know what the case is  BUT is all this taken into acount ? read bellow!
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On 2006-03-04 18:06:41, slattery69 wrote:
if you took out all the people who were religious because they were forced (by the country they live in) or did nt follow the religion as it was meant to be i wonder what those figures would look like then not just for islam but for all the religions.
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[ This Message was edited by: thami on 2006-03-06 01:41 ]
[ This Message was edited by: thami on 2006-03-06 03:38 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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scots, well bloody said!! Thank you for taking the effort to bring some real statistics into the equation, instead of just using what ever stats you could find to justify your belief system. Thank God for Scots. And when I say "Thank God", I mean Allah, Krishna, The Holy Ghost, Jesus Christ, Buddha, and all the rest.
Afterall, if one believes in God at all, how can you deny that all those Gods are but a cultural interpretation of the magnificance of the true nature of God? How can a christian discount 20% (muslim's) of the world population? How can Muslim's discount 30% of the world's population (the christians)?
It's absurd to stand up and say "My religion is the true religion. We have a monopoly on spiritual righteousness." It's the cause of atleast 50% of wars in known human history.
No one religion has all the answers, and the sooner all religions realise this, the sooner we can all work together to eliminate war. Look at the Palestininas and Jews for example. If BOTH SIDES could let go of religious dogma, then they would be able to work together to share the holy city Jeruselum. As it is, their religious views about Jeruselum and it's importance to their respective religions precludes any sort of solution that meets the needs of both sides.
It's completely INSANE to believe that you have a God given right to use voilence to propogate your views and force them on other people. Blair, Bush, Osama, Terrorists, Sharon, Saddam, all these people are no better than eachother because they all attempt to use force to achieve thier ends, and they are not prepared to compromise to achieve lasting solutions. They are completely insane in my book.
The truth? God is far more powerful, loving, and creative than ANY of the worlds religion's portray. Those individuals who have free'd themselves from the dogma of religion, but still believe in God, generally have a much better understanding of God's loving nature.
And when I say that, I believe the majority of people of all religions are not dogmatic. It is only a minority (fundementalists) who spoil it for the rest. But because liberal christians (for example) identify so strongly with "Chistianity", they see their fundementalist brothers as being closer to them in belief system than a non dogmatic muslim, when infact the non-dogmatic followers of any religion have more in common with eachother (regarding how they see God) than they do with fundamentalists of their own religion. It's the same with Muslims.
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2006-03-06 03:11 ] |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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@max - I'd probably put the figure for the number of wars that could have some relation to religion down to something more like 90%!
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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I would have thought the wars fought over religion/faith would have been even higher than 90% ,..if you look back in history it was all about spreading the faith by the sword,although the last 2 great wars, World war 1 & 2 had nothing to do with religion.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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I think religion has been a component of many wars, but there are other reasons that are important too e.g. a basic desire for resources, political ideologies, etc. Mind you one could be used as a pretext for another.
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[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-03-06 11:12 ] |
JK
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
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From: S. Africa - JOZI
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Muslims around the world are not all poor! Maybe in the African countries and warzone areas, but thats what you guys see on TV!
Also i dont think Islams population growth is the only reason that the stats are so high, maybe we should get stats on people who have chosen Islam and not born into it!
It will be Islam!
Something I find wierd is the amount of christians in Pakistan!!
Theres alot!!!  |
axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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On 2006-03-06 12:38:10, 786KBR wrote:
Muslims around the world are not all poor! Maybe in the African countries and warzone areas, but thats what you guys see on TV!
Also i dont think Islams population growth is the only reason that the stats are so high, maybe we should get stats on people who have chosen Islam and not born into it!
It will be Islam!
Something I find wierd is the amount of christians in Pakistan!!
Theres alot!!!
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Indeed thats very true,people in the west generally think that muslims are suffering from extreme forms of povertyin their countries....Although like you said that is true for some nations generally quite a lot of muslims are very affluent..Take the middle east for example..United Arab Emirates,Qatar,Saudia Arabia,Dubai,Brunei Darusalam,Indonesia...these are some very prominant muslim countries who are far from poor...And some of the muslims who reside in the west are extremely well off..in the U.K for example i believe one of the top 10 richest person is a muslim..
The fact of the matter is however you choose to look at it is that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world,..and indeed the No:1 most practiced religon in the world today..I find it ironic that the country that is against Islam so much i.e: U.S is where Islam is spreading the fastest,.more American christians have chosen Islam post 9/11 than ever before..I think the U.S administration policy of make Islam look evil policy policy backfired on them big time...which im very pleased about! ..What the U.S did'nt expect was after they planned and staged 9/11 they this event would bring Islam to the forfront and rattle people curiousity into the faith...After the 9/11 the Quran was almost sold out everywhere in the U.S and here in europe their was a shortage aswell.
786KBR christians account for 10% of the population in pakistan and believe it or not they are even some jews in pakistan.
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scotsboyuk
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KOn 2006-03-06 12:58:47, axxxr wrote:
Indeed thats very true,people in the west generally think that muslims are suffering from extreme forms of povertyin their countries....
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That's a rather broad generalisation to make. You are are saying that all people in the West think that all Muslims are poverty stricken. Do you have any evidence for this? From what I can see most Westerners probably think that many Muslims are living in poverty or are very poor since many Muslim countries are poverty stricken, especially in Africa. However, that isn't to say that all Westerners think that all Muslims are living in poverty.
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Although like you said that is true for some nations generally quite a lot of muslims are very affluent..Take the middle east for example..United Arab Emirates,Qatar,Saudia Arabia,Dubai,Brunei Darusalam,Indonesia...these are some very prominant muslim countries who are far from poor...And some of the muslims who reside in the west are extremely well off..in the U.K for example i believe one of the top 10 richest person is a muslim..
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More unsabstantiated generalisations. "...generally quite a lot of muslims are very affluent." The simple fact of this last statement is that it is not true; generally many Muslims are far from affluent. If you look at where the majority of the world's Muslims reside they are living in countries, which are not very rich and which tend to concentrate their wealth in the hands of a relatively small number of people. This is also true for some of the richer Muslim nations.
I'm not sure exactly what your point about rich British Muslims is; I doubt whether many British people see the British Muslim community as being fantastically different in economic terms to the rest of the country.
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The fact of the matter is however you choose to look at it is that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world,
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People keep saying this and I keeping thinking the same thing, so what? Why exactly is this being mentioned?
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..and indeed the No:1 most practiced religon in the world today..
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What are you basing this assertion on? The world's Christian population is more than 2 billion, which is larger than the world's Muslim population. On the face of it Christianity would appear to be the world's most practiced religion. However, what criteria are being used to decide who practices a particular religion? For all we know there could be more practicing Hindus than Christians.
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I find it ironic that the country that is against Islam so much i.e: U.S is where Islam is spreading the fastest,.
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The United States is not anti-Islam and no matter how many times you repeat the mantra that it is, it won't be any truer (see how I worked a wee religious pun in there). Your own statement is paradoxical, if the U.S. were anti-Islamic it would hardly be allowing Islam to spread within its borders.
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more American christians have chosen Islam post 9/11 than ever before..I think the U.S administration policy of make Islam look evil policy policy backfired on them big time...which im very pleased about! ..
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The extremists are the people making Islam look evil; the people who blow up innocent women and children in the name of Islam. These are people who deliberately set out to kill innocent people, irrespective of age, gender or religion. Thankfully most people realise that such actions are the work of extremists and that they are not representative of Islam, but their actions do serve to further increase fear and suffering.
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What the U.S did'nt expect was after they planned and staged 9/11 they this event would bring Islam to the forfront and rattle people curiousity into the faith...After the 9/11 the Quran was almost sold out everywhere in the U.S and here in europe their was a shortage aswell.
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Clearly you seem to think that an increase in interest in Islam and/or the buying of Qurans constitutes some sort of victory over the U.S., presumably steming from your earlier assertion that the U.S. is 'anti-Islamic' (depsite the fact that it safeguards freedom of religion, does not prohibit Islamic worship and presumably facilitates the sale of a large number of Qurans).
Presumably people were buying the Quran because they wanted to find out about Islam. What exactly does that (and the growth rate of Islam) have to do with the subject of this thread?
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[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-03-06 19:14 ] | |
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Posted: 2006-03-04 19:11
