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Blair: 'God will be my judge on Iraq' |
dealer3
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Andy McSmith
04 March 2006
Tony Blair has proclaimed that God will judge whether he was right to send British troops to Iraq, echoing statements from his ally George Bush.
Contradicting warnings from advisers not to mix politics and religion, the Prime Minister said that his interest in politics sprang from his Christianity and its "values and philosophy" had guided him in public life.
Explaining how he managed to live with the decision to go to war in Iraq, Mr Blair replied: "If you have faith about these things then you realise that judgement is made by other people. If you believe in God,it's made by God as well." His remarks, made in an interview to be shown on ITV's Parkinson show tonight, invite comparison with President Bush, a born-again Christian, who has made a virtue of bringing religion into politics. But they also carry the risk of inflaming opinion in the Arab world, where the term "crusader" is commonly used to condemn Christian leaders who meddle in the Middle East.
It is also exactly the sort of comment he has been repeatedly urged not to make for domestic purposes, because of the risk that a sceptical British public will react badly to politicians who appear to be "preaching". Mr Blair was instructed by his former director of communications, Alastair Campbell: "We don't do God."
As well as invoking God as the final judge of the Iraq war, Mr Blair also explained how his religious and political beliefs came to him simultaneously. "There were people at university who got me into politics. I kind of got into religion, politics, at the same time, in a way. And until the age of about 20 I really wasn't very interested in politics at all," he told Michael Parkinson. "That's how I got interested in it."
He refused to accept a description of himself as a "Christian socialist" - but only because the phrase contained the "s" word. "It's a long time since anyone used the word socialist about me," he said.
He agreed that his politics could be described as Christian "in terms of the values and the philosophy". He also confirmed that religion illuminates his politics. "If you have a religious belief, it does - but it's probably best not to take it too far," he said.
Roger Bacon, who has been trying unsuccessfully to meet Tony Blair since his son, Major Matthew Bacon, 34, was killed in Iraq, said last night: "This would explain why he won't see the parents. How can he speak to us when God told him to send the troops out to Iraq so our sons could be killed?"
And Rose Gentle, whose son Gordon was killed in Basra in 2004, said she was "quite disgusted" at the comments made by the Prime Minister. The Military Families Against the War campaigner said: "How can he say he is a Christian? A Christian would never put people out there to be killed.
"A good Christian wouldn't be for this war. I'm actually quite disgusted by the comments. It's a joke."
During his eight-year premiership, the only decisions that have caused Mr Blair sleepless nights have been those that involved taking the UK to war, he said. But he added: "The only way you can take a decision like that is to try to do the right thing, according to your conscience. And, for the rest of it, you leave it to the judgement that history will make."
Mr Blair refused to say whether he had prayed for guidance on whether to send British troops into Iraq - which has cost the lives of 103 British troops, 2,300 US soldiers, and up to 30,000 Iraqis, with many thousands maimed or injured, in a conflict which has claimed more lives since the fall of Baghdad than the war itself.
There have been persistent reports that Mr Blair joined the President in prayer for God's guidance at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, in 2002, at the summit at which many people believe a secret decision was reached to invade Iraq.
The claim was made in a book by the Christian author Stephen Mansfield, who said he had heard it from White House officials. It was later backed up by a writer on Time magazine, David Aikman.
Mr Bush once told Palestinian leaders: "God would tell me, 'George, go end the tyranny in Iraq' and I did."
Mr Blair's Cabinet includes several deeply committed Christians, such as Ruth Kelly, the Education Secretary, who is a Roman Catholic, and the Chief Whip, Hilary Armstrong - but they rarely break the injunction not to mix religion and politics publicly.
Source: The Independent
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amnesia
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at least now you know who he's going to blame when he doesn't listen to the people. *laughs at democracy*
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slattery69
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not sure what the purpose of this thread is. if a terroirst says he acting in the name of god no one bats an eyelid but if a polictical leader says it its some how wrong.
both cases are wrong take the blame for your own actions not pass the book to something noone can prove exists |
dealer3
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Mmm...you mean
When a person resisting occupation resists in the name of God...he is labeled a Muslim fanatic, a Muslim extremists, and a Muslim terrorists
But when a politician invades country after country, causing mayhem, causing the loss of more than 100000 lives, he got his judgment wrong, maybe he was hearing voices...
Whether a leader or a popper
If a Muslim does something wrong why is it that his religion comes into question?
If a Christian or Jew does something then the mans a clown, the mans insane, he doesn’t know what he’s talking bout...
Im not saying we should blame Christianity...no...I think the individual should be dealt with...
But why is it that people can fall so quickly to blame Islam, but when it comes to another faith it’s not the faith...
treat Islam the same with the same respect, with the same mind as u treat other religions or ways of life, and I garuntee some of you will wake up and realize what this right wing press of the west is feeding u, is no more than brainwashing u with hate and anger for a people...
And you probably thinking yh right...but yh...that’s why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world...
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joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
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From: Kent
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Quote:
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that’s why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world...
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First of all, it is not. Look at Falun gong. It did not exist twenty or thirty years ago. It probably has about 100 million followers now.
Second, the reasons are clear and simple - Muslims are poor. Poor people have higher birth rates. Muslims tend to have very high birth rates.
Third, Muslim apologetists tend to use and define the word "Muslim" in odd, and extremely convenient, ways. So Osama Bin Laden, as we all know, is not a real Muslim. But does he count as a Muslim for the purposes of the "fastest growing religion in the world"? Well of course. There is never any attempt to decide who is or is not "really" a Muslim when it comes to numbers. |
slattery69
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From: north east england
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@dealer 3 no i dont mean a person resisiting anything i dont even mean a muslim hence the fact i never mentioned islam
re read my post i said when a terrorist says its done in the name of god no one bats an eyelid but when blair or bush say it s a big deal.
that is known as double standrads
blaming a non exisitant thing for your own actions also why are the people in the west anymore brain washed than people believing someones iterpretaion of the quran and dont say it doesnt happen as it does,
may people who claim to be muslim carry out acts that aint islamic but there interpretation of the text allows then in there opinion to do this
cant have it both ways |
dealer3
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Second, the reasons are clear and simple - Muslims are poor.
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did u say "the reasons are clear and simple - Muslims are poor."?
when i say islam is the fastest growing religion in the world...i mean it
im not talking bout christian soth africa which is fast becoming muslim...im not talking bout the continect of africa...
im talking about europe, the uk, the us!
Islam – fastest growing religion in the world ?
Cnn - article
“Fastest-growing religion
The second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, Islam is also the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years.
Some scholars see an emerging Muslim renaissance as Islam takes root in many traditionally Christian communities.
Islam has drawn converts from all walks of life, most notably African-Americans. Former NAACP President Benjamin Chavis, who joined the Nation of Islam recently, personifies the trend.
"In societies where you have minorities that are discriminated against, I think they may find an appeal in Islam," said Waleed Kazziha of American University in Cairo.
Many moderate Islamic countries such as Turkey and Egypt are becoming more conservative.
Two decades ago, few middle-class Egyptian women wore scarves or veils on their heads. Now they crowd into special emporiums that advertise Islamic clothing.
Islam vs. the West
In Islam, contrary to Western beliefs, the rights of the community are considered more important than the rights of the individual. religion strongly influences schools, government and courts.”
Thousands Of British Elite Embrace Islam: Study = http://www.islam-online.net/E[....]ews/2004-02/26/article03.shtml
Islam expanding in austrlia
“According to the 2001
census, the Muslim community constituted 281,578
people, an increase of 40 percent since the 1996
census and an overall rise of 91 percent in the last
decade. And these figures may be very conservative.
Some recent estimates suggest Australian Muslims now
number between 350,000-450,000.”
http://www.islamawareness.net/Fastest/australia.html
Muslim in America: With some 6 million U.S. followers, Islam is one of the nation's fastest-growing faiths
Seatle times
http://www.islamawareness.net/Fastest/seattle_mia.html
Refugees attracting Americans to Islam
BY JASON KEYSER
Associated Press Writer
Ohio News, Ohio.com
Monday, November 27, 2000
http://www.islamawareness.net/Fastest/refugees.html
Fastest-Growing Religion Often Misunderstood
By: Barr Seitz (ABC News)
http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Islam/islam21.htm
Washington report!!!:
Muslims in America: The Nation’s Fastest Growing Religion
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0596/9605013.htm
in 2010 islam will be second most practiced faith in the us!!!
Indian times!
http://www.islamawareness.net/Fastest/timesofindia1.html
A matter of faith: Islam is fastest-growing religion in U.S.
By Stephen Magagnini
Bee Staff Writer
(Published July 1, 2001)
http://www.islamawareness.net/Fastest/sacbeelocal01_20010701.html
the guardian :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/rel[....]40459,00.html#article_continue
Islam 'will be dominant UK religion'
http://www.islamawareness.net/Fastest/dominant.html
Comprehensive Survey of US Muslims
http://www.islamawareness.net/Fastest/comprehensive.html
converts to islam!!!
http://www.islamawareness.net/Converts/
you judge for yourself!
in fact america is so scared
look : http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a100501b.html
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dealer3
Joined: Apr 11, 2005
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The Worlds Major Religions Changes In the last half century...
Confucianism & Taoism decrease 13%
350,600,000
305,000,000
Judaism decrease 4%
15,630,000
15,000,000
Christianity increase 47%
682,400,000
1,000,000,000
Eastern Orthodox decrease 36%
144,000,000
092,000,000
Protestant increase 57%
206,900,000
324,000,000
Catholic increase 70%
331,500,000
565,000,000
Buddhism increase 63%
150,180,000
245,000,000
Hinduism increase 117%
230,150,000
500,000,000
Shintoism increase 152%
25,000,000
63,000,000
Islam increase 235%
209,020,000
700,000,000
World Almanac and Book of Facts, 1935
and Readers Digest Almanac and Yearbook 1983
Muslims in Asia (1996) 1,022,692,000 (30%)
Muslims in Africa (1996) 426,282,000 (59%)
Total Number of Muslims on the Earth (1996) 1,482,596,925
Total Number of People on the Earth (1996) 5,771,939,007
Percentage of Muslims (1996) 26%
Islam annual growth rate (1994-1995) from U.N. 6.40%
Christianity growth rate (1994-1995) from U.N. 1.46%
Total Number of Muslims on the Earth (1998) 1,678,442,000
Expected Number of Muslims on the Earth (2000) 1,902,095,000
This figures below shows the growth of Islam:
North America 25%
Africa 2.15%
Asia 12.57%
Europe 142.35%
Latin America -4.73%
Australia 257.01%
Among every four humans in the world, one of them is Muslim. Muslims have increased by over 235 percent in the last fifty years up to nearly 1.6 billion.
By comparison, Christians have increased by only 47 percent, Hinduism, 117 percent, and Buddhism by 63 percent.
Islam is the second largest religious group in France, Great Britain and USA (Muslims in USA are 10 millions and Jews are 6 millions).
The number of the total population has been taken from The CIA World's Facts Book.
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slattery69
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
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From: north east england
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i m curious about the point joe made as well. not just for islam but for all the major religions.
if you took out all the people who were religious because they were forced (by the country they live in) or did nt follow the religion as it was meant to be i wonder what those figures would look like then not just for islam but for all the religions. |
joebmc
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Posts: > 500
From: Kent
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What i also mean is how many people born are given the choice of the religion. If your parents are christain your more than likly to be forced into christianty same for all religions.
How many children born to muslims are given the option? Pretty much 0!
How many different sects of muslims are there... i think its about 70. Should they all be classed as muslims even though they follow it differently?
If i say i was a muslim does that mean i'm a muslim even if i dont follow the qurans law. There are many who claim to be muslim yet dont follow the quran truely, yet they still get classed as muslim (and added to the total).
Im not trying to say islam doesn't have a large following (cos it does) but you have to admit these numbers aren't no where near true if you add the certain factors and that apply to all relgions not just islam.
[ This Message was edited by: joebmc on 2006-03-04 17:32 ] |
slattery69
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From: north east england
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i think you raise a fair point. christianity is broken down into sect s in the report yet islam is classed as a whole. i ve got to say a muslim living is pakistain is a very different muslim to the one living in say the uk. the cutural perversion of religion just isnt taken into account with these figures |
joebmc
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Also are there any stats for how many people there are who dont beleave in god/allah/religion, who knows maybe atheist's are growing more in numbers, maybe more than who are turning to islam in fact? |
amnesia
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I think the answer is quite simple really.
The western governments have argued for ages that religion and politics should not mix (hence trying to change the way of rule in middle eastern countries) but then they contradict themselves.
Lead by example I say.
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slattery69
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i dont think religion and politics do mx particularlly well. how often i wonder does religion get perverted to suit a polictical end. that goes for all religous countries around the world.
i ve got to the stage now were religion has just been perverted so much to meet individuals needs that i fond it very difficult to even be bothered with reliogion and i spent ten years of my life studying philosphy and religion |
amnesia
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thats the thing.
I wish to God that governments around the world (it doesn't matter what country it is) actually listened to the people when they say they're a democracy and don't blame their actions on God.
In my eyes, God lights the way, but it's the person who chooses the path.
I personally think saying God guided him in doing what he did is wrong, not only because it makes it seem as a West VS. East, but also because England itself is one of the most international country's in the world.
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Posted: 2006-03-04 11:53
