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The Danish Mohammad cartoon row - what do you think? |
02
Joined: Sep 24, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: UK Birmingham
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oh my god..... why is hard for you guys to understand... god!! still people here seems so think it is just a cartoon... its just a small thing... it is a this it is that... come on guys.... pls follow your hearts not wat other people say... atleast the heart not up there in ur head..
Not offending.. but stating facts.... I see most Christians make fun of their religion.. a totally disrepect for the sake of laughter.... but I see your point.. the Christians would say.. 'oh it is just a cartoon,' 'nothing serious to think about, it for fun' bla bla bla...... but can i ask you this question... is it a SIN to do that?? or some one in the Christian community has the ability to communicate with father God or Jesus and ask them permission to make fun of them??? im just curious...
To me putting your religion and having a great laugh at it, is kinda wrong... its like disrespecting and making fun of your parents, grand parents, wife and family... for the whole world to have a laugh at you... that not right.. come on.. atleast im speaking facts here...
Yes i agree with wat ur saying guys.. that other religion sees Islam as just another system of religion.. buty we have our ways.... other religion have theirs.... so respect it... If the cretor of that cartoon have a sense of respect he/she would not have done it for the sake of peace all over the world....
Im a muslim... but i dont go ard doin riots and stuff.... WHY?? coz different people are different... some go crazy and angry, some would say take it easy.. just let God take action to this individual who disrespected.... and try to explain to non-muslim (the rest of the world) why it is wrong... in a very peaceful manner.. and hoping the rest would accept for the better future. | |
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Londinium
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Completey agree 02 very well said as with your previous posts! 
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absinthebri
Joined: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 476
From: London, UK
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On 2006-02-06 06:23:53, 02 wrote:
[snip]...... but can i ask you this question... is it a SIN to do that?? or some one in the Christian community has the ability to communicate with father God or Jesus and ask them permission to make fun of them??? im just curious...
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It's probably sinful. And the nature of freedom implies I need no-one's permission to do so.
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Yes i agree with wat ur saying guys.. that other religion sees Islam as just another system of religion.. buty we have our ways.... other religion have theirs.... so respect it... If the cretor of that cartoon have a sense of respect he/she would not have done it for the sake of peace all over the world....
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Personally I think the artist and the publishers of the cartoons were foolish and I will defend absolutely their right to be so.
Many things offend me very much. On balance it is better to be offended than silenced.
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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there is a lot of material in this thread to the effect that the west needs to respect islam and muslim culture, that the west needs to understand islam, that islam doesn't need to change, and that the west should stop forcing it's ideology on other peoples. all of these things are generally true to a greater or lesser degree, depending on context. however, i cannot help but detect a level of arrogance to those claims.
why should the adherents of islam living in the west not respect the cultural values of the west? why should they not accept that the country in which they reside values free speech and protects that freedom by law? why should they not be tolerant when the country in which they choose to live promotes values which do not wholly coincide with their own religious view, especially when those values explicitly protect their right to religious freedom?
the cartoon was drawn by a danish national residing in his own country, published in a danish newspaper, and originally only seen by danish citizens. a small minority of those citizens found the cartoon offensive - less than 2% in a country of ~5.5 million (assuming every muslim in denmark saw the cartoon and was offended by it). the only reason anyone else in the world saw that cartoon was because of the disproportionately violent reaction.
why should denmark, a country whose population is nominally 98% christian and has the lutheran church as it's official religion, compromise its social and cultural values - established and protected by hundreds of years of history - for the sake of a minority? the muslim population of denmark consists almost entirely of people who chose to immigrate, or the descendents of such. note the word "chose". if you choose to live in a country not of your birth, you must accept that it's laws and culture are different from where you grew up . the same goes for anyone who decides to live in iran, saudi or palestine (only moreso, because freedom of speech, religion, and association are not necessarily protected rights in those countries). hell, there would be cultural differences if i moved to the US or UK.
what people seem to miss is that it is the very "western" values they complain about that are protecting these protesters from reprisal. if an iranian newspaper published a cartoon lampooning christ, if anyone so much as wrote a polite letter expressing slight misgivings they would end up either in jail or at the end of a rope.
@O2: technically cartoons lampooning god or christ, and possibly by extension the church, would be a sin (refer to the second and third commandments). the point is, they are other people's sins.
if you believe god/allah created everything on earth then he also created irreverence, irony, cynicism and humour. i personally believe that god must have a sense of humour, otherwise nobody else could have one.
a cornerstone of western (and not coincidentally, predominantly christian) societies is the freedom to have opinions and to express those opinions. this is a right the cartoonist exercised. you have the right to a contrary opinion, and the right to express it. but you do NOT have the right to either threaten or commit violence in the process.
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| On 2006-02-06 06:23:53, 02 wrote:
oh my god..... why is hard for you guys to understand... god!! still people Yes i agree with wat ur saying guys.. that other religion sees Islam as just another system of religion.. buty we have our ways.... other religion have theirs.... so respect it... If the cretor of that cartoon have a sense of respect he/she would not have done it for the sake of peace all over the world.... |
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are the rioters respecting islam? what about the apologist excuse-makers with their veiled threats, the "while we don’t condone acts of violence, what we are seeing now is an inevitable result of..." crowd? that isn't not condoning violence, it's an admission of cowardice by people who don't want to get their hands dirty but are willing to live with the outcome if it benefits them. the hypocrisy is just amazing.
the violence is not a result of the cartoons, but the result of something much more insidious. the original publishing paper has apologised for causing offence, so why isn't that the end of it? when any other minority group in the western world is offended by something in the media, they make a peaceful form of public protest (be that a letter, a rally, or a march) which generally results in retraction or apology. no other group seems to get into this cycle of "smite the enemy" violence - not even anti-abortionists 
they need to accept that not everyone believes as they do, and is therefore not subject to their moral code.
it just seems to westerners in general that the reaction is wildly disproprotionate to the offence. i mean, arent' there bigger fish to fry (hunger, war, human rights abuses, african aids epidemic, etc.)?
incidentally, in australia joking about and making fun of your family is a sign of affection.
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire
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Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore 
[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2006-02-06 06:21 ] |
absinthebri
Joined: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 476
From: London, UK
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On 2006-02-06 07:13:15, gelfen wrote:
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...they need to accept that not everyone believes as they do, and is therefore not subject to their moral code.
it just seems to westerners in general that the reaction is wildly disproprotionate to the offence. i mean, arent' there bigger fish to fry (hunger, war, human rights abuses, african aids epidemic, etc.)?
[snip]
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Come to the US or the UK and try publishing a cartoon showing an obviously "Jewish" character, blood dripping from his mouth, grasping at Palestine and see how long you avoid a jail cell.
"Freedom of Speech" in the West is VERY subjective.
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02
Joined: Sep 24, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: UK Birmingham
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Islam is minority in denmark... yea so wats ur point? it wont effect the whole Islam community in the world??? It does effect....... ofcoz.. it effected me for sure...
"if you believe god/allah created everything on earth then he also created irreverence, irony, cynicism and humour. i personally believe that god must have a sense of humour, otherwise nobody else could have one. "
Yes true.... ofcoz God created everything.... all the senses.. but the one that do the actions is not God its you.... he dont control ur legs, hands, mind.. its your choice your decisions... its a test.. u want to do Sin or Good.. its ur choice..
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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On 2006-02-06 07:30:02, absinthebri wrote:
Come to the US or the UK and try publishing a cartoon showing an obviously "Jewish" character, blood dripping from his mouth, grasping at Palestine and see how long you avoid a jail cell. |
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given that neo-nazi groups are free to publish in those countries with virtual impunity, my answer would be "indefinitely"
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On 2006-02-06 07:30:02, absinthebri wrote:"Freedom of Speech" in the West is VERY subjective. |
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as this whole situation has proved.
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On 2006-02-06 07:36:40, 02 wrote:
Islam is minority in denmark... yea so wats ur point? it wont effect the whole Islam community in the world??? It does effect....... ofcoz.. it effected me for sure... |
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my point is that the entire social and legal value structure of denmark, or the entire EU, or western world for that matter, should not have to be compromised for the sake of appeasing those whose actions should not be tolerated by anyone.
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| On 2006-02-06 07:36:40, 02 wrote:
Yes true.... ofcoz God created everything.... all the senses.. but the one that do the actions is not God its you.... he dont control ur legs, hands, mind.. its your choice your decisions... its a test.. u want to do Sin or Good.. its ur choice.. |
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absolutely agree. but let me ask this - what right have you to judge my sins?
the saddest thing is that protesters and rioters who promote this culture of victimhood aren't victims at all. it's the decent hardworking muslims who quietly go about their lives in accordance with their beliefs, and the rest of us whose basic rights are being threatened.
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Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore
[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2006-02-06 06:49 ]
[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2006-02-06 06:50 ] |
absinthebri
Joined: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 476
From: London, UK
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On 2006-02-06 07:38:45, gelfen wrote:
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On 2006-02-06 07:30:02, absinthebri wrote:
Come to the US or the UK and try publishing a cartoon showing an obviously "Jewish" character, blood dripping from his mouth, grasping at Palestine and see how long you avoid a jail cell. |
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given that neo-nazi groups are free to publish in those countries with virtual impunity, my answer would be "indefinitely"
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Jews and Sikhs are specifically protected in the UK (as they are considered a racial group). Muslims are not. I'm free to insult the Islamic faith in any way I choose, but not the Jewish faith.
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khan
Joined: Feb 03, 2006
Posts: 122
From: a room with a view
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d west is desperately trying to make people agree that d war on terror is actually a war against ISLAM.
This message was posted from a Nokia |
02
Joined: Sep 24, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: UK Birmingham
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Jews and Sikhs are specifically protected in the UK (as they are considered a racial group). Muslims are not. I'm free to insult the Islamic faith in any way I choose, but not the Jewish faith.
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so is that a good thing to do my dear friend? |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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| On 2006-02-06 07:50:42, 02 wrote:
so is that a good thing to do my dear friend? |
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 (sorry - that just struck me as funny  )
but i agree with the sentiment.
@abisnth: i am not aware of the specific UK laws, but if it's anything like australia i would suggest that muslims are protected under general religious vilification laws since they are a religious group rather than a race.
i think this situation has gone far beyond just being about an offensive cartoon. everyone has admitted that it's offensive, ignorant and misleading - nobody is disputing that. it's moved into the realms of an ideological debate of tolerance, respect and free speech.
_________________
Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore
[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2006-02-06 06:57 ] |
absinthebri
Joined: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 476
From: London, UK
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On 2006-02-06 07:50:42, 02 wrote:
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Jews and Sikhs are specifically protected in the UK (as they are considered a racial group). Muslims are not. I'm free to insult the Islamic faith in any way I choose, but not the Jewish faith.
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so is that a good thing to do my dear friend?
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I'm merely pointing out that in the UK my "right" to freedom of speech is partial. I am "free" to offend some religious groups, but not others.
Personally, I would attempt to avoid offending any group on the ground of religious belief, but I believe that should be my choice, not something proscribed by law.
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steele
Joined: Dec 27, 2003
Posts: 329
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In my humble opinion, violence/vengeance is not the answer to whatever insult hurled into any religion, Islam, Jewish or Christian. Let God be God. If one truly believes that God is just, one should not take offense because God will always be there to judge.
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02
Joined: Sep 24, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: UK Birmingham
PM |
@steele
I 100% agree with you!
thats wat im saying.. different people are different.. some go crazy and some try to explain things in forums in a peaceful manner... ; ) |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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@steele: agreed
@absinth: and yet "the merchant of venice" still gets performed from time to time. those kinds of laws exist to prevent those whose sole intention is to offend or discrimminate. in the case of the cartoons, it could be argued that they are intended as political (not religious) satire - although i wouldn't personally be convinced. there are artworks and plays far more offensive to christians which haven't led to this kind of reaction.
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Posted: 2006-02-06 06:23
