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Mizzle
Joined: Oct 06, 2006
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I posted that in a comment at the blog only 1½ hours ago... Besides, that's not exactly what you'd call an acceptance unit, personally I'd call it a production unit.
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makbil
Joined: Oct 26, 2006
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On 2008-05-27 21:38:58, Tigershark42 wrote:
It costs alot of money to make such devices, Japan is willing to be very demanding when it comes to this sort of thing, just to be several years ahead of the rest of the world in terms of technology. And as a result, indeed they are. Other markets arent as technologically advanced yet due to lack of necessity, people dont expect that level of technology, so it isnt supplied. Therefore providing it would not be sustainable.
Actually there is a paradox there. Most of the cost of a device is made up by R&D. If you already have the device marketed in Japan, than you could easily have similar devices - minus the cost of R&D - available for the rest of the world. Since only minor changes will be necessary (keyboard etc.) the cost would even be less than developing another device specifically for that region.
P990i: A mistake, a curse and a disgrace  So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD |
moogoo
Joined: Oct 25, 2002
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The cost of distributing a japanese phone to other markets is not with the R&D but with the marketing, distribution, tariffs and regulations. The US gets majorly screwed on a TON of great stuff both electronics and not all because of the thousands of regulations and taxes, loops, hurdles and so forth it makes manufacturers endure before being able to sell their product in the states.
All of this costs money and most, if not all companies are unwilling to go through the hassle for very meager demand. It's funny how you europeans or non-japanese/korean asians complain about your lack of mobile tech. Look at us americans! We get the bottom of the barrel year after year. To us, EUROPE is a year or two a head in mobile tech and Japan is a dream away.
The US is the largest market in the world. You'd think if it were so easy to just sell their top product to any market, they would push it in the US because it would just take a "few modifications to make it use US bands". That's obviously not the case. There is no demand here for those devices because the general american mobile population is unaware of what's out there.
moogoo
Nokia 5160 -> Nokia 8260 -> SE T68i -> SE K700i -> SE Z710 -> SE Xperia X10a -> Sony Xperia S -> Sony Xperia Z1 -> Sony Xperia XZ -> Sony Xperia XZ Premium -> Sony Xperia 1ii
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my ninja
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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On 2008-05-27 21:38:58, Tigershark42 wrote:
On 2008-05-27 19:07:27, moogoo wrote:
It isn't a slap in the face. THe fact of the matter is, Japan has always been and will always been ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to mobile technology. This is true because of the HIGH demand for your listed features and the high amount of competition for the lucrative market. Such features, although desired by many of us here on esato, are not in super high demand outside of japan. It wouldn't be logical for SE to produce such high-end devices for a market that really doesn't want/need it yet.
That is the only reason they are holding back. We just have to accept that Japan will always be at least a year ahead of the rest of the world in mobile tech.
Moogoo hit the nail right on the head there. Thats precisely what I meant when I said to Makbil that Sony and Ericsson (and therefore SE) arent stupid. Theyre indeed capable of the specs you want, Japanese handsets are proof of this. But the means to do better things will always be there. These are not technological but geographical and economic restrictions. It costs alot of money to make such devices, Japan is willing to be very demanding when it comes to this sort of thing, just to be several years ahead of the rest of the world in terms of technology. And as a result, indeed they are. Other markets arent as technologically advanced yet due to lack of necessity, people dont expect that level of technology, so it isnt supplied. Therefore providing it would not be sustainable.
Dont think this is just SE. Im waiting for Sony products I want to become available outside of Japan. This is the case across the board when it comes to electronics. The same is the case with many manufacturers. May I kindly suggest though, if you so crave numbers on a list, please either go to Japan (lol jk!) or look to a different manufacturer for solutions which better suit your needs (eg HTC, is Taiwanese, I dont think they are bound to such restrictions, but I dont know, so dont hold me to that).
i disagree the time where nippon is ahead by years or even a single year is gone, TV's/Game Systems/Media Players ... etc all come out within MONTHS of their japanese counterparts without being crippled.
SPECIFICALLY SONY for example that new OLED 11" TV that they released 4 months after japan in the USA ... where demand is almost nil because the value isnt there HOWEVER that didnt stop them from producing it and selling it in an NTSC region, where they have to change out components to make it compatible with USA frequencies/display resolutions. so i will continue to say that you all need to stop expecting mediocrity! you cant prove this point as the company in question's parent doesnt even follow your logic, actually it quite proves the point im trying to establish.
not only is it feasible but it would be cheaper and garner more sales for the company. which they are in DIRE need of. how do i know that itll increase sales, well its the trickle down theory, the same one that got SE to the forefront 2/3 years ago.
diversification is doing EXACTLY what they believe CONSOLIDATION will do, and thats CANNIBALIZE sales ... a jack of all trades is a master of none.
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moogoo
Joined: Oct 25, 2002
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Each technology is different. It just so happens that mobile tech is a tech where Japan has always had a headstart. It is a small country which basically built its networks from the ground up because they did not have an established and complicated telephone system in place. They were able to go right to the mobile world without throwing out billions of dollars worth of established phone systems.
The US has always lagged behind due to its massive network of telephone systems and the undoubtedly trillions of dollars it has invested over the years in its telephone infrastructure. It was not about to just toss it aside for a new tech.
It just so happens that in other techs, such as TVs and displays, most countries are on relatively even ground. But what is true for one tech is not true for another.
moogoo
Nokia 5160 -> Nokia 8260 -> SE T68i -> SE K700i -> SE Z710 -> SE Xperia X10a -> Sony Xperia S -> Sony Xperia Z1 -> Sony Xperia XZ -> Sony Xperia XZ Premium -> Sony Xperia 1ii
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dr.W
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
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On 2008-05-27 21:59:57, Mizzle wrote:
I posted that in a comment at the blog only 1½ hours ago... Besides, that's not exactly what you'd call an acceptance unit, personally I'd call it a production unit.
I understand your goal is to manage people's expectations, but I think you are going a little too far with this. It seems to me as though people are speaking of you in reverential terms, not disparaging.
Besides, as long as no one knows where you live, all you're really risking is getting flamed here, and that happens to people whether they provide good information or not. 
[ This Message was edited by: dr.W on 2008-05-27 21:17 ] |
my ninja
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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On 2008-05-27 22:08:02, moogoo wrote:
The cost of distributing a japanese phone to other markets is not with the R&D but with the marketing, distribution, tariffs and regulations. The US gets majorly screwed on a TON of great stuff both electronics and not all because of the thousands of regulations and taxes, loops, hurdles and so forth it makes manufacturers endure before being able to sell their product in the states.
All of this costs money and most, if not all companies are unwilling to go through the hassle for very meager demand. It's funny how you europeans or non-japanese/korean asians complain about your lack of mobile tech. Look at us americans! We get the bottom of the barrel year after year. To us, EUROPE is a year or two a head in mobile tech and Japan is a dream away.
The US is the largest market in the world. You'd think if it were so easy to just sell their top product to any market, they would push it in the US because it would just take a "few modifications to make it use US bands". That's obviously not the case. There is no demand here for those devices because the general american mobile population is unaware of what's out there.
so making a NEW phone for the EU market doesnt need to go through all those hoops to be sold in the USA ... doubful. and marketing are you serious when was the last time you saw a commercial for an N95 ... or ANY high end nokia?
thats what i thought.
you all can keep making excuses about this, but in the end you get screwed by accepting mediocrity. you have to demand more from SE not this drivel ... painting flowers of a device and pawning it off as "new" when its just a rehashed P990 doesnt seem like they are investing in R&D either, so where is this MOUNTAIN of money that SE spends that you all so blindly defend going ... it certainly ISNT new platforms, well not for the USA/EU markets anyways.
edit: moogoo the GSM networks are in place, theyd need only apply the tech that applies to that region, just as in the tuners in the TVs ... im not sure why you think that the networks being different would stop SE when they have i/m/c iterations of many of their phones already ... its getting harder and harder as i type each one of these for me to believe that SE CANT do it, when in fact this is part of their established business model.
[ This Message was edited by: my ninja on 2008-05-27 21:22 ] |
Tigershark42
Joined: Dec 05, 2007
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My Ninja: yeah, and that OLED TV for just an 11" screen costs a grand a piece. You wanna pay that for a phone? Cuz I dont...
Accepting mediocrity? I am sorry. It isnt mediocre. Its the best SE is rolling out to us. Since we like the brand, are willing to stay with it and arent dissing it all day long, thats fine for us. However if you insist on disagreeing, then just go your own seperate way, because arguing your point will bring you nothing.
If there was such a magical simple fix for having ultra high end phones over here, dont you think someone would have gone that route by now? Ask someone like Eldar, who has a much better understanding of the mobile industry as a whole than we outsiders do, and see what the reason is. But there is a reason, and the fix isnt that simple. So kindly please stop spamming the thread about it.
If you have so little brand loyalty, then surely you have no problem with just walking away.
[ This Message was edited by: Tigershark42 on 2008-05-27 21:28 ] |
Tigershark42
Joined: Dec 05, 2007
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On 2008-05-27 21:59:57, Mizzle wrote:
I posted that in a comment at the blog only 1½ hours ago... Besides, that's not exactly what you'd call an acceptance unit, personally I'd call it a production unit.
Kay, I wasnt really into technicalities anyway, since again, that was not my point, but thanks for correcting me anyway :S |
my ninja
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: > 500
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$2500 actually ...
and yes, personally for a phone that i could spec out for you here, thats a distinct possibility its all in the VALUE ... if i could have a phone/camera/web/ipod in one device (the iphone is trash unholy for homeless ppl to even look at let alone infect themselves by picking it up, and the N95 is made by nokia who wouldnt know a good UI even if they were using it), i would definitely pay for it the same as i would pay for those devices separately. more generally you dont see companies holding back, you see them pushing features most ppl would never use ... but in this odd case we have a company putting out 3yr tech as if its the new hottness.
no one cares about smile shutters, but i would say that ppl who bought and N95 found GPS useful, no one wants led lights that light up with the mood of the song while the phone is in your pocket, but ppl would want WiFi.
im not attacking anyone thats not my goal, my goal here is the enlighten everyone to demand more from a company that is FULLY capable of giving more.
"Accepting mediocrity? I am sorry. It isnt mediocre. Its the best SE is rolling out to us."
why should you accept it then? they are the company YOU are the consumer you have it backwards they depend on YOU to sustain themselves. you MUST reject it if its not acceptable no look in you hand and say oh well, maybe next year ...
"Since we like the brand, are willing to stay with it and arent dissing it all day long, thats fine for us. However if you insist on disagreeing, then just go your own seperate way, because arguing your point will bring you nothing."
thats the wrong attitude ... completely by accepting what they give you, youll never get anything respectable from them, i am not "dissing" them or anyone im merely pointing out the difference in philosophy, you think im being disparaging well i am ... but not because i dislike SE, its because i like and respect them MORE than any other mobile manufacturer out there and it hurts me that this is what it has come down to.
"If there was such a magical simple fix for having ultra high end phones over here, dont you think someone would have gone that route by now? Ask someone like Eldar, who has a much better understanding of the mobile industry as a whole than we outsiders do, and see what the reason is. But there is a reason, and the fix isnt that simple. So kindly please stop spamming the thread about it."
... its a message board. ill continue my messages in a productive and respectable manner. eldar isnt as inside as you think.
"If you have so little brand loyalty, then surely you have no problem with just walking away."
please dont question my brand loyalty i have made no mention that i disliked SE in any of my posts ... also i know that ive been on the board longer than you ... so please refrain from that kind of language.
[ This Message was edited by: my ninja on 2008-05-27 21:44 ] |
cmikilp
Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Posts: 123
From: Sweden
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On 2008-05-27 21:46:50, Tigershark42 wrote:
On 2008-05-27 01:42:52, Mizzle wrote:
On 2008-05-26 21:51:21, Tigershark42 wrote:
Probably right, but Mizzle still gets sent acceptance units before theyre released.
Once again, I failed to find this being a statement of mine anywhere on the web...
Ahem, ahem, do I misread something here, my dear Mizzle, when I quote:
'G900 review coming fairly soon. I have not yet received my review unit, although it can’t take long now.'
(Kay fine, you could say that G900 is released now anyway, but that was never my point. Doesnt really matter, I was only proving a point about how there are people who are involved in this sort of thing in a way that theyre always up to date with whats just come out and the latest handsets).
Talking about latest handsets, how about that P1 and Paris comparisson 
Look forward to the G900 review too m8, looks to be an excellent performer IMO
[ This Message was edited by: Tigershark42 on 2008-05-27 20:48 ]
I've had my G900 for two days now...pretty bad battery time
100% this morning...down to 39% now |
moogoo
Joined: Oct 25, 2002
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Of course there are regulations and rules for EU markets as well. My point is the US has had a history of being one of the more difficult markets with regards to passing regulations.
It is undisputed that the US is the largest market in the world. Your argument seems to be that the tech is there, why not just DO IT? If a company wants to make a lot of money, they would want to sell their product in the largest market in the world, correct? By your logic, the US should have the best tech for every electronic out there. But it doesn't. Not only in mobile tech but in a lot of other electronics areas.
The GSM networks exist in the US. However the latest iteration of GSM is not fully implemented nationwide. While there is GSM in the states, it is not 3G everywhere. ANd honestly, I wouldn't want a fully featured phone if i couldn't use it's features to its full potential.
This is also a reason why DoCoMo found it very difficult to establish their 3G tech a few years ago. They were the first to implement it. However the phones cost a lot, the service plans were expensive and the service did not cover all areas. They lost a lot of money rolling out their 3G and had to rethink their business strategy because of it.
You have a lot of accusations and demands and as Tigershark said, if ya don't like it, there are other brands for you to go to.
moogoo
Nokia 5160 -> Nokia 8260 -> SE T68i -> SE K700i -> SE Z710 -> SE Xperia X10a -> Sony Xperia S -> Sony Xperia Z1 -> Sony Xperia XZ -> Sony Xperia XZ Premium -> Sony Xperia 1ii
Website: https://www.mikedoesitall.com |
my ninja
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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^^ regardless of these regulations it hasnt stopped SE from delivering _any_ of the EU handsets to the USA ... not a single one.
i also dont remember making any mention of profitability, i did however make mention of establishing brand recognition, which LEADS to profitability ...
look at the PS3 ... it was expensive but lead the way for the cheaper version down the road where ppl were willing to see the tech of the $$$ version and when sony throttled down the features ppl were willing to buy it, thus making it profitable to be sold after some time.
3G is not ubiquitous ... however GSM is! and by no means does it have to be, all of the features of these phones are not DEPENDENT on 3G.
why is my brand loyalty questioned, a) its free market regardless b) if i condemn a companies decisions i automatically hate them and should run to another??? have you all attended a shareholders meeting ... EVER? if you dislike the direction SPEAK UP! dont sit back and let them tell you what you want or need.
[ This Message was edited by: my ninja on 2008-05-27 22:00 ] |
Sony α
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@my_ninja
'the iphone is trash unholy for homeless ppl to even look at let alone infect themselves by picking it up, and the N95 is made by nokia who wouldnt know a good UI even if they were using it'
lol - that IS funny - now here's a guy who knows what he's talking about - kudos to you dude!
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[ This Message was edited by: Sony α on 2008-05-27 22:09 ] |
moogoo
Joined: Oct 25, 2002
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^ you stated that regulations has not stopped the SE from bring any EU model to the US.
While it may be true that SE COULD sell an EU model in the US, it doesn't sell all of them. Most EU models exist in the US as imports and not available from american carriers. Even t-mobile, which uses EU bands does not carry all possible SE models.
In addition, the 850 band is what makes the US market unique. Phones supporting the 850 band receive better signal than those that don't. And yes 3G is not ubiq. What's the point of having a phone with a supreme data capabilities if it can't be used? Being able to take hi-res photos and video (like with the W61) and then having to WAIT until you got home, xfer to your computer and then send it to whoever? You've gotta be kidding me.
You insist you're loyal to SE yet you continue to insult their intelligence and business strategy. I don't think that's very loyal at all.
EDIT: I apologize to everyone for fueling this off-topic fire. @ninja Let's get back to what this thread is really for. So anybody know when the next leak for something else?
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moogoo
[ This Message was edited by: moogoo on 2008-05-27 22:13 ] | |
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Posted: 2008-05-27 21:59
So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD 
