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K800 - Not really a 3mp camera |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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mongoose, I've noticed something really strange about this business. I was noticing the jagged edges as you noticed them - but no where as extreme as your examples. Much less noticeable and "acceptable"
Then I noticed when I first view some images (I use ACDSee), it has extremely jagged edges, then when I zoomed out and then in again, the jaggedness disappears. I didn't resave the image at all so it's not being smoothed out by compression.
This has never happend with any images from other sources, which leads me to think there is a feature of the jpeg algorithm of K800 that befuddles some imaging programs in certain conditions.
See this example below, where I screen captured an image opened in acdsee, then zoomed out then in again, followed by another screen capture.
On the left is the image as it appear when first opened, on the right is the image as it appears on any subsequent openings. (part of the screen captures cropped to fit without resizing)
very strange!
both captures are of the EXACT same image with no post processing on either. I don't know what this behaviour means exactly, but I thought it worth mentioning.
But disregardingthat strange business for a moment, I've just been out taking photos, and have been comparing against my K750 pics, and from my analysis so far, the K750 pics also have jagged edges but not as prominent ad the K800. I could only judge the K800 jaggedness to be slightly more evident than the K800 pics. The examples you have given seem to be more extreme than those I've been able to produce.
for example here's a beemer 4wd, virtually no jaggedness visible at 1:1
and this beemer sedan, some jaggedness but not excessive in my view:
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-08-01 05:33 ] |
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mongoose3800
Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Posts: 416
From: Australia
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Very strange indeed. I think it was just some glitch with Acdsee. I've tried several Image editors/viewers and the effect is always the same. The effect can even be seen on the K800's own screen by just zooming in on an image.
I went out at lunch today and took pictures in a park. Everything bar landscapes of the far off horizon show the effect. e.g. The slide on a kids playground looks like a cheese grater. What's worse is that the effect is still visible if you drop to 2mp - although not as much. |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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hmmm, I wonder if it is a fault with your camera mongoose? Or maybe earlier firmware versions? What firmware are you on?
I believe you are getting definite problems, but I just can't seem to reproduce the severity on my own K800.
regarding acdsee, I'm willing to admit it may be a weird acdsee thing, but why only with K800 pics? I have viewed many thousands of K750 photos (about 8000-9000 in total), as well as numerous other digital camera images, and have never had this occur until the K800, which leads me to think there is some kind of bug in K800 jpeg compression - if we could access raw K800 images, they may not have the jaggedness at all! Or maybe as you say it's completely unrelated issue. I just thought it odd. 
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-08-01 05:54 ] |
Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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From: Toronto, Ontario
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Nope no glitch. If you notice when you first go into the gallery on the K790/800 a large 3mp image taken by the phone is blurry. It takes roughly 3 seconds for it to 'clear' and no more blurriness. what is going on here?
|AppleTV2|iPhone 12Mini 256GB|iPad Pro 256GB| Previously ...  K750|Z500|Z520|K700|K790i|K850i, :Ericsson: T18z|T28World|T36m x3|T68m (Ericsson, not the rebranded T68i). |
mongoose3800
Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Posts: 416
From: Australia
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On 2007-08-01 06:49:29, max_wedge wrote:
hmmm, I wonder if it is a fault with your camera mongoose? Or maybe earlier firmware versions? What firmware are you on?
I believe you are getting definite problems, but I just can't seem to reproduce the severity on my own K800.
regarding acdsee, I'm willing to admit it may be a weird acdsee thing, but why only with K800 pics? I have viewed many thousands of K750 photos (about 8000-9000 in total), as well as numerous other digital camera images, and have never had this occur until the K800, which leads me to think there is some kind of bug in K800 jpeg compression - if we could access raw K800 images, they may not have the jaggedness at all! Or maybe as you say it's completely unrelated issue. I just thought it odd.
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File System Tweaks for the K750 K750 Tricks
[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-08-01 05:54 ]
I'm on R1kG001. It's not a fault with my camera - I'm sure of that. Have a look at the links I provided on the bottom of the first page of this thread - they're from a review site. The examples I have posted here are extreme examples to point out the fault. I actually do have some some good shots that are not affected. Here's a couple more suggestions for your testing - a macro shot of an analogue watch comes out pretty bad. Try a shot of tree with lots of fine branches that has shed it's leaves. Try a macro shot of a bottlebrush flower - For non australians, that's a native flower here. Try anything with fine hairs - Cats whiskers turn into staircases. |
Daedalus85
Joined: Apr 23, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: Suffolk, UK
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Umm, so your telling me you guys think the fact that it's blurry when previewing it for the first few seconds is a fault, correct?
Christ I thought I was slow...
Think about it logically, the K800i and it's subsquent successors etc are faster at loading pictures. Apart from the increased processor, ever wondered why?
It loads a thumbnail preview of the picture at low res so you can breifly see which picture it is, and then loads the full image after a few seconds, to save time and processing speed.
My opinions on this forum are that of my own and not of the company I work for. |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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On 2007-08-01 08:53:47, Prom1 wrote:
Nope no glitch. If you notice when you first go into the gallery on the K790/800 a large 3mp image taken by the phone is blurry. It takes roughly 3 seconds for it to 'clear' and no more blurriness. what is going on here?
It's because the processor's not fast enough to display the good version quickly. It's either show the low quality followed by the high quality, or have a blank screen while the good one loads. Some cameras do this, my old Kodak CX4200 used to do this.
Incidently, that's not the effect I was describing above. I'm talking about Acdsee, the PC image viewer. 
@Mongoose, I'll keep taking photos but I'm thinking I don't have a problem with mine. I remember in K750's some had the white bands in low light pics, while later versions had virtually none. Photos of the same object with different K750's and one had really bad white bands, the other was hardly perceptible, and I repeated this a few times. So it's in the realm of possibility that the K800 sensor could be of varying quality. The white lines were the weakness of the K750, maybe jagged edges are the weakness of the K800?
http://rapidshare.com/files/46313272/DSC00077.JPG.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/46313708/DSC00079.JPG.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/46314289/DSC00085.JPG.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/46314518/DSC00090.JPG.html
(full size pics in the rapidshare links - I'll be happy to use a more convenient host if anyone knows of a free one)
Now those pics are the norm for what I've been getting, they are not just the occasional good one. Only the seeds on the table really showed much jaggedness, the rest are pretty good. I have to say, the more I use the camera and get used to it, the better I like it.
However there are occasions where I still get the jaggedness and it's disappointing, but not as bad as the white bands which really limited night mode shooting for the K750 (unless using a modified camera driver with enhanced night mode).
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-08-01 13:08 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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On 2007-08-01 13:38:53, Daedalus85 wrote:
Umm, so your telling me you guys think the fact that it's blurry when previewing it for the first few seconds is a fault, correct?
Christ I thought I was slow...
No that was prom1 all on his own
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Evilchap
Joined: Aug 25, 2006
Posts: 57
From: New Zealand
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As has already been said the quality of the picture is based on many variables. Not just how many mega pixels. So instead of just going on about that and compresion etc how about looking at the rest of the possible causes for this. At the end of the day it is a phone, and imo not a bad one with pretty good camera. |
mongoose3800
Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Posts: 416
From: Australia
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On 2007-08-01 13:38:53, Daedalus85 wrote:
Umm, so your telling me you guys think the fact that it's blurry when previewing it for the first few seconds is a fault, correct?
Christ I thought I was slow...
Think about it logically, the K800i and it's subsquent successors etc are faster at loading pictures. Apart from the increased processor, ever wondered why?
It loads a thumbnail preview of the picture at low res so you can breifly see which picture it is, and then loads the full image after a few seconds, to save time and processing speed.
We are not idiots. That's the exact response I got from SE support. I'm talking about viewing the image on a computer screen. |
mongoose3800
Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Posts: 416
From: Australia
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Max_wedge. Pretty good shots. On the picture of the nuts you can just see the zig/zag affect on the edge of the shells at full size. You may say I'm picky but my eye has now learnt to pick it up quickly. The others are barely effected (look at antenna of ants) as there aren't really any sharp edges.
Have a look at this shot I took yesterday. http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphotos.php?pid=6450#
It's a simple enough shot really. But as you can see, when viewed at full size the image is ruined by JPG compression all over the slide. The picture is clearly not of the quality you would expect from the lowest end 2mp camera.
I've tried to get SE support on this. They don't want to enter into discussions about sensor sizes or image quality. Rather, they pointed me to the SE developer site.
I am really so disappointed in the camera on the K800 that I contacted my provider yesterday to see what they can do. They are investigating options of replacing the phone for me. If they do offer me a swap it will probably be an Nokia N73. I reckon I'd happy with that.
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razec
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Mars
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even though N73 has even higher JPEG compression algorithm?
10 years at Esato |
mongoose3800
Joined: Nov 29, 2005
Posts: 416
From: Australia
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I think so. I've spent the day looking at N73 pictures and at least they can handle straight edges. I'm still making up my mind. |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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yep, that slide is a problem alright. 
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razec
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
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From: Mars
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On 2007-08-02 06:53:21, mongoose3800 wrote:
I think so. I've spent the day looking at N73 pictures and at least they can handle straight edges. I'm still making up my mind.
I think you should first wait for an upcoming camera driver for K800 before you start changing phones. N73 images can handle edges but terribly fails in dealing with fine details especially when capturing tree leaves or the waters on a lake 
10 years at Esato |
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Posted: 2007-08-01 06:16
K750|Z500|Z520|K700|K790i|K850i, :Ericsson: T18z|T28World|T36m x3|T68m (Ericsson, not the rebranded 
