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Charging with data cable bad for the battery? |
jfunk
Joined: Oct 10, 2005
Posts: 67
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I'm guessing not, as SE wouldnt have made a data cable that also charges otherwise!
So do Li-ion batteries not suffer any 'memory effect' whatsoever? |
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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lithium batteries don't suffer memory affect at all. It is completely safe to charge regardless of the current state of charge of the battery.
Neither do you need to deep cycle charge the batt. Just use it and charge when convenient. I charged my K700 almost every single night for 12 months or more and the battery is in pristine condition still. |
BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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only nimh and nicad batts have memory effect. on some way i have to admit, that those batts were way more stable and trusteable.
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BlueQuill
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
Posts: 419
From: India
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Does that go for nokia too?? I hope so...
The shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their interests and his own are the same. |
BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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u mean the usb charger?
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*Jojo*
Joined: Oct 15, 2003
Posts: > 500
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Ideally, it would be BEST to charge Li-Ion batts when it is about to go DRAIN, not 3/4 or 1/2 - FULL !
[addsig] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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A common misunderstanding, but not so JN. This only applies to batteries that suffer memory affect. Li-on batts can be charged at any point in the discharge cycle without affecting the batteries life cycle. 
I wondered too when Lithium bats first came out (and manufacturers claimed they have no memory effect), but since then I have found it to be true.
I used my T28s for three years without the battery once suffering memory affect. I rarely discharged the battery more than 50% before charging, and in fact mostly I put it on to charge every night, with the battery at 80% or more.
Same with my T610 and K700 (twelve months use each) and K750 (3 months so far). |
Tervel
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: US, TX
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The only thing that could be damaging to (even) Li-Ion batteries is fast charging, as in the type of charging done using an Auto/Car lighter adapter. Those chargers tend to 'rapid charge' the battery messing with the charging circuitry over time. That's why I was wondering if the USB charging is considered to be the same, but since USB can only provide 500mA of power I don't think that's the case. |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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I'm pretty sure either the phone or lithium battery itself has circuitry that prevents fast charging. |
*Jojo*
Joined: Oct 15, 2003
Posts: > 500
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@max - Is that a very 'safe' advise mate  I may agree in a way to your last posts about the issue but as what I have heard from peeps and in some forums that for BEST results with your (Li-Ion) batts, charge it when it's about to go DRAIN. Although as what you have also lamented, that Li-Ion batts can be charged almost at - any given time, am I right here But for me, I only DO that when I am about (abrupt) to go on a special meet or occasion or even plain malling, an hour of charging will suffice, even when the meter is - 3/4s full !
[addsig] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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It's absolutely safe to give that advice JN
Believe me, I have done my research on this. This was prompted by Aivar who insisted that you had to fully discharge the battery before charging. Knowing this to be wrong I refuted his claim, and what followed was a ten page exchange with Aivar quoting his experience and that of his friend, and me listing my own experience, and quoting dozens of websites all of which acknowledged that lithium batteries don't suffer memory affect! Basically the view that batteries need to be discharged fully before charging only evolved due to the memory affect of Nicad, and to a lessor extent nimh, batteries. This whole issue simply doesn't apply to lithium batteries.
Here is an extract from my earlier postings in the tips for battery thread:
( http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=5503&start=300 )
QUOTE:
From the following website: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm"
"Does not need prolonged priming when new. One regular charge is all that's needed"
and
"Low Maintenance - no periodic discharge is needed; there is no memory "
and
"Avoid frequent full discharges because this puts additional strain on the battery. Several partial discharges with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one deep one. Recharging a partially charged lithium-ion does not cause harm because there is no memory. (In this respect, lithium-ion differs from nickel-based batteries.) Short battery life in a laptop is mainly cause by heat rather than charge / discharge patterns."
END QUOTE
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*Jojo*
Joined: Oct 15, 2003
Posts: > 500
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@max - Thanks for the 'buffet' style of reply coming from you dude  Having read those, links included . . . I think that you are MORE concern about the batt's - MEMORY effect status, am I right Well for me, I am more KEEN at the batt's LIFE itself . . .. which has a primary concern of prolonging it instead of the USUAL - damaging it. We all know that the average life (span/time) of an original battery is only - 1.5 - 2 years, but if we can extend it to 2.5 - 3 then . . . . WHY NOT !
[addsig] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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actually, lithium batteries will last the same pretty much regardless of how they are charged. Lithium batteries have circuitry inbuilt to prevent:
1. under voltage (under voltage can cause a lithium battery chemistry to break down permanently), so you cannot run the battery dead, as the circuits shut the battery down before this happens. Therefore you cannot damage a lithium battery by running it too low. Without the under voltager protection the battery would actually be killed very quickly if you did run it flat often.
2. The phone will not charge the battery once it is full. Lithium batteries are not "trickle charged". If you leave the batt on charge all night, it will top the battery up until it is fully charged, then stop charging. So a two hour charge of a flat battery (generally all that is needed to fully charge phone lithium batts) is effectively no different to leaving it on charge all night. So leaving the batt on charge all night doesn't decrease the life cycle anymore than putting it on to charge for two hours only.
3. Overheating. If you overheat a lithium battery it will break down the chemistry and reduce the batteries life cycle. But because the battery isn't trickle charged, it doesn't get hot, therefore putting the phone on charge for more than is needed to charge it fully doesn't cause the heating that reduces the batteries life.
Some early lithium batt designs didn't have these features, but now all lithium batteries, and devices that use them, manage the charging electronically to ensure the lithium battery life cycle is preserved.
So basically the there are two factors that determine the life cycle of a lithium battery, and neither of these is related to how the user charges their phone. The first factor as mentioned is heating. Heating (even from leaving the phone in the heat of the sun for a several hours) will greatly reduce a lithium batteries life cycle.
The other factor is the shelf life that the battery is designed with. Lithium battery chemistry starts to break down from the minute the battery is manufactured. This process continues at a steady rate until the battery is no longer chargeable. Deep cycling or charging patterns DO NOT affect this rate of decay. Most phone lithium batteries have a shelf life of about 3 years (this means if you buy a battery that has been on the shelf for two years, you'll only ever get a further year before it will no longer charge up, even if you haven't used all it's life cycle hours.
Which brings me to the last point; life cycle. The batteries life cycle may be say 1000hrs. This means that you can charge the battery for 1000 hours in total before it is no longer chargeable (or three years, whatever comes first). HOWEVER, and here's the good part about lithium batteries, if you charge the battery all night, it is really only charging for the amount of time it takes to top the batt up to full charge, which may only be 15 min in some cases.
So if you put it on charge all night, or just put the phone on charge for 15 min (in the above example), you will have EXACTLY the same affect on the batteries life cycle.
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Posted: 2005-11-05 13:21
