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Pradhika
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: India
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Welcome whiz to vegetarian club, where i have been for the last 5 years.
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whizkidd
Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: India
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| Actually have you ever seen a cat stalk a bird, no compassion there. Have you seen dogs rip apart a rabit and NOT eat it, just do it for fun? My point is that animals don't kill for fun, they do it to survive. But they don't necessarily understand that their food source has feelings though, which is why they can have fun at another animals |
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I've been saying that all along! Just to remind, i'm not a tree hugging, hyper-active animal lover!
But i do care for them! 
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| They will however have compassion for their own kind in certain circumstances, and even for other species, but it is rare in nature |
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I have seen animals compassion...but we really can't say its "compassion" because it is a human quality and we are comparing animals with our set of values..while they do not have any values at all!
Btw, some lions do kill cubs fathered by other lions..which i believe is to increase the chances of his offsprings to rule the roost. This' to us is gruesome and pathetic but its perfectly natural for lions as they do not possess compassion!
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| Animals are not defenseless creatures, you completely dishonour them by saying that. Many of them kill every day. |
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Agreed! But even a teenager can kill an Elephant or a Rhino
if he has a gun with him! I agree with you when you say they ain't defenceless! But give a human a gun and suddenly every animal...no matter how big or fierce is a puppet at his hands!
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| An animal on the other hand, because of it's lack of knowledge of the suffering of it's prey, will have fun playing with it's food until there is almost no life left and then start eating it's prey before it is even dead. The animal suffers no karmic debt for this, since it can't understand the true suffering involved. |
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Very true indeed! Agreed whole-heartedly! 
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| The human will not suffer karmic debt just for killing and eating an animal, sine that is necessary for survival. |
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As stated earlier, i agree with this too..But i definitely do not think we NEED animal flesh for survival. We eat it because of cultural reasons or just because we like to eat it!
No one i have ever met have told me he eats non veg to survive! He eats it because he likes it! Of course this doesn't apply to a poor, hungry destitute who haven't eaten for days and finds an animal and kills it for his hunger.
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| You treat every non-vegetarian as some animal hater what's the point in that? |
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Atleast i do not. 
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| Your argument has no logic. You say we are equal to them, yet we can't do as they do (kill to eat). |
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Being "equal to them! Does it mean we start doing all those things which they do? I've always maintained that animals are "different". But they have as much right to live as we have.
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| What would you do if hunted down by a lion as it tears into you with a look of glee on it's face? Would you still think they have compassion? |
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I won't ever tread into a forest without a gun!
If a lion attacks me and of course he won't feel any compassion for me! If i have no choice, i'd use the gun to "get him off me" but my intention would be to injure it not to kill..But anyway, i wonder if we would have the time and ability to think about the lions frame of mind or his fate while we are being attacked!
Anyway, a lion attacking us would be due to our own folly. We are at the wrong place dude!
Some things which i again want to clarify is that, i do not consider non vegetarians as cruel, mindless killers who have no sympathy or humanity left in them!
But i do not support rearing animals, killing them for food and monetary reasonsno matter how "humanely" it is done.
T230 >> T610 >> Ngage QD >> N73 >> N85 >> Omnia HD >> And countless other review units |
mrao
Joined: Nov 11, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Mumbai, India
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Hmm...I think it is as much a personal choice of whether to smoke or not, as it is to eat meat or be a vegetarian.....talking bout the right to live....non smokers have as much right to live as their stick puffing counterparts ( me incuded) but tend to be more affected by the effects of passive smoking....and this has been proven ad nauseum...given a choice...id rather quit smoking but remain a meat eater...at least im not endangering the lives of my own....and i have seen enough vegans in my smoking life than meat eaters  |
solidsingh
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: india
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thats india for you mrao, its a different story in the UK, hardly anyone is vegan
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mrao
Joined: Nov 11, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Mumbai, India
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@solid praaji, ....are you saying that if someone who smokes 45 sticks a day, with a wife and kids, were to be given a choice ...* Smoke and endanger the life of your closest ones OR eat meat and your loved ones do not run a risk * ...what would he choose??
I think this choice is not limited by geographical boundaries....im positive the choice would be the same, whether its the UK, India, USA, Ghana, Uzbekistan or any dot on the globe, for that matter.....thats the essential nature of the beast....i have digressed from the core topic....but in essence the argument is based on the same premise.. Its purely a matter of personal CHOICE...it has nothing to do with values or morality
[ This Message was edited by: mrao on 2005-09-09 08:05 ] |
solidsingh
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: india
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mrao i think you mis understood what i meant, i meant that there are more vegans in india than in the uk, it was purely a statistical comment
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mrao
Joined: Nov 11, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Mumbai, India
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@solid praaji....i guess i did misunderstand the perspective of your comment peace |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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@whizzkid, I was replying to ayush who is more militant about it than you are. Thanks for your reasonable comments, which I mostly agree with.
I believe that in the future, it will be possible for humans to stop relying on animals for sustenence. For now we don't farm efficiently enough to support everyone with vegies alone. Once better organic and permaculture farming methods evolve it will be seen that food can be produced much cheaper without chemicals, mono cultures etc, for a much higher yield. Then we can stop relying on animals.
Regarding life, a tree also lives, and I believe has a consciousness just like animals do. It would be much more rudimentary, but I believe they have it. Think of experiments where positive thinking has an impact on the health of plants. This also explains why chemicals and mono-cultures do not promote the highest yields possible - because the plants are treated like battery farm animals! They are abused, unhappy, sick and therefore not resistant to disease and bugs.
On the other hand plants in a permaculture are much more resistant to disease. They are healthier and happier.
The answer is not to stop eating, but to respect and honour that which we do eat.
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JK
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: S. Africa - JOZI
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Yip eat in moderation, do everything in moderation!!
Whats this about unhappy animals?? If they bred in captivity, they dont know any better!! Its sad but true they are bred to be eaten!!
If the world stops eating them... IF!!!?? then What?? Will they become extinct? there wont be a use for them! They will just become old eat all the grass and die!! then you stuck with old meat that could be hazardus to our health.... then theres also the leather issue....
If for some reason you have the power to stop every1, the whole world from eating meat... Where do the animals stand for you, what would you do with them...???? just curious |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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relax mate, I'm talking way in the future dude. I'm not advocating we work towards it now, we don't have the technology or understanding of the ecosystem!
btw, we rear animals, we don't eat them wild. There wouldn't be much affect at all on native wildlife except that it would have chance to regain it's natural equilibrium. Animals don't grow fast enough in the wild to survive extinction when used by humans, in case you hadn't noticed. We FARM them. If we didn't eat them they would die from their own predators or starvation.
I'm just saying that I think it will be possible one day that it will be cheaper and healthier to grow food than to rear it. We may still have meat, but not necessarily everyday.
Anyway I don't really care, I don't think killing an animal is the bad part. As long as people treat animals humanely, then it's okay to kill them for meat. That's what I'm trying to say but it seems vegetarians and meat eaters alike are attacking me. One side because I eat meat, the other side because I don't like to see animals suffering.
"These Romans are crazy" as Obelix would say....
Go and study what the Native tribes all around the world have to say about respecting the spirit of animals they kill for food...it's about doing what has to be done, but with compassion and honour.
[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2005-09-09 16:52 ] |
Ayush
Joined: Sep 12, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Hyderabad, india
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786, u say what if humans stop eating them??
dude they are reared to be eaten. so if demand stops the killing will too
Ayush  |
ADT0079
Joined: Oct 08, 2003
Posts: 100
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No that is not true Ayush what about the indigenous tribes that are still out there that dont rely on technology,I can say they hunt meat for sure......
what about indians they still whale hunt for meat.... I could go on and on but some skulls are too thick in here.........
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solidsingh
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: india
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be careful what you say before insulting people, anyone can learn to grow crops, they dont have to hunt their food
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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in case you hadn't noticed, crops aren't that easy to grow. Like I said, mono-cultures (the primary way crops are grown today) require expensive fertilisers and pesiticides, and expensive farming equipment to obtain high yields.
Native tribes should turn their rainforest homes into farmland? Destroy even more rainforest? Perhaps the 3 billion of us who need extra land for growing food (so we don't have to eat meat) could use their land?
Already land all over the world is over-farmed. Do you want to completely destroy the world's ecosystem just so you don't have to feel guilty about killing an animal?
Eventually food will be grown more efficiently. If you want to make a difference join a community farm that grows organics, then take what you learn there and start an organic farm. Spread the knowledge, don't attack people. Be pro-active.
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ADT0079
Joined: Oct 08, 2003
Posts: 100
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no they dont have to hunt for food but as you see they choose to hunt for food.....
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Posted: 2005-09-09 04:55
