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so who is religous here? |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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From: The Ummah
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We'll see what happens. Don't say you weren't warned.
Chapter 63 Verse 11 states:
But to no soul will Allah grant respite when the time appointed for it has come; and Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do.
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aps
Joined: Jun 06, 2005
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peterkay..allahs not my god...so its ok....and...muslims ae the fastes t growing cos each muslim has 10-15 kids in asia...thats why...
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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 any excuse mate.
Go back to sleep, this topic was ok till you appeared 
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aps
Joined: Jun 06, 2005
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just hate to see a man going to his grave with the wrong beliefs thats all..
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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Whatever.
Hope you realise the truth before you die.
Bye
Bye
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aps
Joined: Jun 06, 2005
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what did christ say hmmmm...... something bout tyrying to see ur own faults before correcting others?.... i wonder why ppl dont see that anymore...
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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Examples of unreliability in the Bible
The Bible is a great collection of literature, but it cannot be treated as a uniformly reliable source of historical information.
Here are a few examples of statements in the Bible which are either errors or myths or deliberate tampering with the truth.
This is only a small sample, the tip of an iceberg!
The Bible authors:
make mistakes
24000 (Num 25:9) is mis-copied as 23000 (1 Cor 10:8).
Jehoiada (2 Chr 24:20-22) is mistaken for Barachiah (Matt 23:35).
The quotation in Mark 1:2 does not come from Isaiah.
recount contradictory traditions
In Mark, Jesus says he will give no sign (Mark 8:12), whereas in John he performs many signs (John 2:11).
In Luke, Jesus seems undecided whether the kingdom of God is near (10:9,11) or has already arrived (11:20).
hide unpalatable facts
Au_Mark (writing in Greek) occasionally quotes Aramaic, but normally gives a translation (as e.g. in Mark 5:41). However in the list of disciples he refers to "Simon the Cananaean". Now "Cananean" is the Aramaic for "Zealot", and Au_Luke supplies the translation (Luke 6:15). Au_Mark does not translate the word because he wants to hide from his Greek-speaking readers the fact that one of Jesus' disciples was a Zealot. At the time when Au_Mark wrote his gospel, the Romans had only just completed the suppression of the Zealot revolt in Judaea.
Au_Acts describes in great detail the appointment of a twelfth apostle to replace Judas Iscariot (Acts 1:21-26), but fails to explain the sudden appearance (Acts 12:17) of James the brother of Jesus as the leading apostle. For to have explained James' leadership, Au_Acts would have had to contradict his own gospel account, because this had been based on Mark's gospel, which had claimed that James had not been a disciple of Jesus during his lifetime.
more can be found HERE
@apl, what were you saying about christ?
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aps
Joined: Jun 06, 2005
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hahaha..u r so dumb...i mean u still look at the historical facts in the bible..hahahahahaha..oh my god.ur so funny..got to give it to u.... so islams perfect? wow...it must be...the perfect religion...historically i guess...it shud be..since ur a historian...
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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From: The Ummah
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Chapter 91 from The Greatest Revelation ever:
. By the Sun and his glorious splendour;
2. By the Moon as she follows him;
3. By the Day as it shows up the Sun's glory;
4. By the Night as it conceals it;
5. By the Firmament and its wonderful structure;
6. By the Earth and its wide expanse:
7. By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
8. And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
9. Truly he succeeds that purifies it,
10. And he fails that corrupts it!
11. The Thamud people rejected their prophet through their inordinate wrong-doing,
12. Behold, the most wicked man among them was deputed for impiety.
13. But the Messenger of Allah said to them: "It is a She-camel of Allah. And bar her not from having her drink!"
14. Then they rejected him as a false prophet, and they hamstrung her. So their Lord, on account of their crime, obliterated their traces and made them equal in destruction, high and low!
15. And for Him is no fear of its consequences.
What great verses from the only scripture not to have changed.
Amazing.
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pleber
Joined: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 200
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@peterkay - regarding the supposed differences of the way Judas died. One book says he hanged himself- the other says he fell headlong and his guts spilled out. Why cant both be true? Couldn't he have strung himself up in a tree and fell headlong out of it?
Regarding Islam being the fastest growing religion- that proves nothing. The Nazi party was the fastest growing party in Germany before the war- does that mean it's right?
No wonder Islam is the fastest growing religion if it invades countries and offers death or conversion- quite a recruitment tool! (And yes, I know supposed Christians did this too at one point in history- but not for such a prolonged time or of such a scale)
The bible says that in the last days Christianity shall decline and the world will become more evil...
One day soon, everyone – including Muhammed – will bow before Jesus and confess him as Lord. And everyone will be Judged.
Revelations 20 v 11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
@Amnesia
I'm not here comparing faiths - I came here and asked (peterkay mostly) question I didn't know about Islam and he asked questions about Christianity.. I thought that was the whole point of this thread. |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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Quote:
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On 2005-09-22 19:02:20, pleber wrote:
One day soon, everyone – including Muhammed – will bow before Jesus and confess him as Lord. And everyone will be Judged.
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Look forward to that day.
Verse 59 Chapter 3:
The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
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pleber
Joined: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 200
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@peterkay
That list you gave about historical errors in the bible is a poor argument against it...
e.g.
compose 'teachings of Jesus' and events in his life
1. Au_Matt composed the story of Jesus' birth in Bethlehem (Matt 2:1-6) in order to present it as the fulfilment of the prophecy of Micah 5:2 that a ruler would emerge from Bethlehem.
2. Au_Mark composed the parable of the vineyard (12:1-11) in order to illustrate his central message that God's Son had been sent into the world.
3. Au_Luke composed the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) in order to shame the rich and encourage the poor.
It says these stories were composed for whatever reason. Who said these where composed? Was this person there? What historical evidence is there that these things are 'composed'? I could just as easily say 'The Quran was composed by an unstable Arab who had hallucinations and thought they were from God'. That would make a very poor argument because its only my uneducated opinion.
[ This Message was edited by: pleber on 2005-09-22 18:17 ] |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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hey pleber, its not me who spotted the mistakes, it was a christian himself.
some more here:
modify unpalatable statements:
No staff, no sandals (Matt 10:10 sQ) becomes Except a staff, but to wear sandals (Mark 6:8-9).
"Why do you call me good?" (Mark 10:18) is altered to "Why do you ask about what is good?" (Matt 19:17), thus avoiding the possible implication that Jesus is not "good".
'James and John ..... said .....' (Mark 10:35) is altered to 'the mother of the sons of Zebedee asked .....' (Matt 20:20), thus in a few deft words erasing the implied greed of the two brothers.
put speeches into the mouths of their heroes
In John's gospel, Jesus speaks in a Johannine style, quite different from the way he speaks in the synoptic gospels. The words of John's Jesus cannot be the words of the historical Jesus.
In Acts, Peter, Stephen and Paul speak in the same (Lukan) style. Of course we can hardly blame Au_Acts. He was following the literary conventions of the day as described by Thucydides. When not an eyewitness, the author simply did his best to represent what the speaker would have said in the given circumstances. Nevertheless this is of limited help from the historian's point of view, especially if the author had not known the speaker personally.
compose 'teachings of Jesus' and events in his life:
Au_Matt composed the story of Jesus' birth in Bethlehem (Matt 2:1-6) in order to present it as the fulfilment of the prophecy of Micah 5:2 that a ruler would emerge from Bethlehem.
Au_Mark composed the parable of the vineyard (12:1-11) in order to illustrate his central message that God's Son had been sent into the world.
Au_Luke composed the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) in order to shame the rich and encourage the poor.
pass off their writings as the work of apostles
The clearest example is 2 Peter, which purports to have been written by the apostle Peter (2 Pet 1:1, 16-18), but was actually based on the letter of Jude. 2 Peter was written after the first generation of Christians had died (3:4), and the letters of Paul had been made available as a collection (3:15-16).
Modern scholars have also concluded that several letters attributed to Paul were not actually written by him: Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus. Also that 1 Peter was not written by the apostle Peter.
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pleber
Joined: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 200
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@peterkay - your list of errors is completly worthless...
I’ll take an example of a supposed error. You quote;
"Why do you call me good?" (Mark 10:18) is altered to "Why do you ask about what is good?" (Matt 19:17), thus avoiding the possible implication that Jesus is not "good".
Mark 10:18 says
“And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?...”
Matthew 19 v 17 says
“And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good?...”
They are EXACTLY the same!! What kind of Christian came up with this list of ‘errors’? That list really is laughable!
Heres some for you
# In sura 2:142-144, we find the change of the Qibla, the direction of prayer from Mecca to Jerusalem, and back to Mecca.
# The inheritance laws in suras 4:7; & 2:180, provides an equal share for women and men, and then is doubled for men in sura 4:11.
# The change of night prayers from a full night in sura 73:2-4, to a half or less, or whatever was easy to do in sura 73:20.
# The change of punishment for adulteresses, beginning with life imprisonment, found in sura 4:15, and then changed to 100 strokes by flogging, according to sura 24:2. Remember that these two examples make no mention of the previous 'missing' aya which prescribes the stoning for those who commit adultery. It is also interesting to note that Homosexuals were let off if they repented, according to sura 4:16, though this same allowance was not given for heterosexuals.
# The change of the retaliation laws where retaliation for the crime (murder) was confined to people of equal rank (i.e. slave for slave) in sura 2:178, then it was to be carried out only against the murderer by the heir, sura 17:33 (note: Ali adds Qisas and forgiving to the Arabic).
# The change of the days of creation from 6 (7:54; 25:59) to 8 (41:9- 12).
# The change of the hierarchy of prophets, where they were initially equal (suras 3:84;2:285;2:136) and then some are elevated above the others, sura 2;253 (see Ali's note:289).
# The changes in intercession; at first done by angels and Muhammad (suras 42:5; 24:62), and then were not acceptable to Allah (suras 74:48; 63:5; 34:23).
# The Sword verses: the Call to "fight and slay the pagan (idolaters) wherever you find them" (sura 9:5); or "strike off their heads in battle" (sura 47:5); or "make war on the unbeliever in Allah, until they pay tribute" (sura 9:29); or "Fight then... until the religion be all of it Allah's" (sura 8:39); or "a grievous penalty against those who reject faith" (sura 9:3). These all contradict "There is no compulsion in religion" (sura 2:256).
# Sura 2:184 first allows a rich man to buy himself out of the fast by feeding an indigent. The following verse (185) allows no compensation.
# Widows were to keep themselves apart for 4 months and 10 days after their husband's death (sura 2:234), which is then changed to one year (2:240).
# Sura 2:106 contradicts sweeping changes which follow: in the Qibla (vss.115,177,124-151), pilgrimage rites (vs.158), dietary laws (vss.168-174) law of talio (vss.178-179), in bequests (vss.180-182), the fast (vss.182-187), and the pilgrimage again (vss.196-203).
# Sura 16:101 contradicts changes which follow in dietary laws (vss.114-119), and in the Sabbath laws (vs.124).
# Muhammad will not forget the revelations which Allah gives him (sura 87:6-7), is then changed to withdrawing that which Allahs wills to withdraw (i.e. revelations) (17:86).
# Allah commits himself as law to act mercifully, which implies cause and effect (sura 6:12), yet later in the same sura we find that "If Allah willed, he could have brought them all together to the guidance... Whom Allah will he sendeth astray, and whom he will he placeth on a straight path" (vss. 35 & 39).
# Concerning predestination, in sura 57:22 we find the words, "No evil befalls on the earth, nor on your own souls but it is in a book before We bring into existence." And in sura 76:29-31 it says, "..whosoever will may choose a way unto his Lord, Yet ye will not, unless Allah willeth... He maketh whom He will to enter His mercy..." Both of these contradict sura 42:30, which states, "Whatever of misfortune striketh you, it is what your right hands have earned."
# In sura 5:82, Pagans and Jews are considered the furthest from Muslims, while Christians are the nearest, yet in sura 5:51 & 57 Muslims are told not to have Christians as friends. Interestingly, in the same verse (51) it comments that Jews and Christians are friends, yet the only thing they have in common is their agreement on the authenticity of the Old Testament.
# Muhammad was the first to bow down to Allah (i.e. the first Muslim) (sura 6:14,164; 39:12). Yet these passages forget that Abraham, his sons and Jacob were former Muslims (sura 2:132) as were all the earlier prophets (sura 28:52-53), and Jesus' disciples (3:52).
# Allah curses all liars, yet permits Muhammad to break an oath (sura 66:1-2), and though Allah alone may be worshipped, he demands Satan and the angels to worship Adam, with the result that Satan is eternally punished because he refused to do so (sura 2:32).
# An abrogation evidenced by Muslims today is the claim that the Bible (which they admit is a revealed book) has been altered and corrupted. Yet sura 10:65 reads, "There is no changing in the Words of Allah," and sura 6:33,34 reads, "There is none that can alter the decisions (revelations) of Allah."
# In sura 17:101 we find 9 plagues (or signs), whereas in sura 7:133 only 5 are listed (note Ali's footnote no.1091 which adds the rod and leprous hand from verses 107 and 108, as well as the drought and short crops of verse 130 as plagues, to make up the nine).
# In sura 51:57 we find that Jinn were created to worship Allah, yet in sura 7:176 we find that the Jinn were created for Hell.
# In sura 17:103 we are told that Pharaoh was drowned with his army, yet in sura 10:90-92, upon admitting to the power of God, he is rescued as a sign to others.
# Angels are commanded by Allah to bow down to Adam in suras 15:29-30; 20:116, which they do, yet Allah prohibits anyone worshipping any but him (suras 4:116; 18:110).
# Lust is condemned in sura 79:40-41, yet in sura 4:24-25 Allah permits polygamy, divorce, and the use of female slaves as concubines (one needs to ask why a man needs a concubine if not to satisfy his lust). Furthermore, for those who are faithful lust is the primary, and unlimited reward in heaven (suras 55:46-78; 56:11-39). Surely if lust is wrong on earth and hateful to a Holy God, it cannot be pleasing to him in paradise.
# On that same note, wine is forbidden while on earth (sura 5:91), yet rivers of wine await the faithful in paradise (suras 47:15; 76:5; 83:25)
# Muslims Jews, Christians, and Sabians are all considered saved in sura 2:62, yet in sura 3:85 only Muslims are considered saved.
# In sura 4:157 we read that Jesus did not die, yet in sura 19:33 we read that not only did he die, but he arose again! (note: Yusuf Ali has no rebuttal here, but in his footnote no.2485 refers to sura 19:15, which repeats the same words for Yahya, and then refers the reader to sura 4:157-a vivid example of using a Nasikh verse to abrogate one which is Mansukh in order to get out of a "jam").
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vanquish
Joined: Mar 20, 2003
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On 2005-09-22 18:16:40, PeterKay wrote:
Islam has been the only religion since day ONE, so all the people before the final messenger will have a place in heaven. Islam is the ONLY true religion and willbe till the day of judgement. You do not need to believe me but when your eyes close and the eyes of your soul opens then you will regret this discussion.
The fastest growing religion, ask yourself WHY.
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Haha, it hasnt been around since day one! Lmao.
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Posted: 2005-09-22 18:41
