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The Gulf War 2 Thread - Stick to the topic this time. |
plasmadog
Joined: May 06, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Beantown, India
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hi,
i think one should take moore's comments with a pinch of salt.
true, that he's bringing to light a lot of problems that plague the world today i.e bush/gulf war2/gun control etc.
but i don't know if he's the right one to dish out the advice.
he should be commended for the fact that if it weren't for him and his documentaries, a lot of truths would never have come up for the whole world to see.
but his first premise is to shock people, yeah? tell them how bad the president is.. but i don't know if he can tell people what they should do about it.
i mean americans on the whole are smart, and once u give them the facts, they can decide... and this is why democracy is so good.. that u can decide and kick the person who u don't want in office.
in a democracy and a free press, u know who's lying a lot and who's lying less ( i'm not naive enough to believe that there are no people out there not lying)har!
cos like in india, when they had elections, the guys who lied more got booted out.. and the next government comes in and starts lying until the same fate bites them in the ass.
as kennedy said "you can fool some of the people all of the time;
all of the people some of the time;
but never all the people all the time"
i guess democracy really helps... and i do agree with u guys that north korea and zimbabwe need to be dealt with the same way. but one more country that everyone seems to forget is myanmar.(burma).
there u have aung san syu ki (forgive me for spelling) who's really fighting for democracy. and we as outsiders need to help people who're fighting for democracy and for human rights and freedom.
u don't need to send them guns or troops. they need the support of the rest of the world behind them.
that's it.. support.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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There used to be a time when all that was necessary was for us to send a gunboat to one of these countries and everything could be sorted out before breakfast. I think Britain actually has the world record for the shortest war, with Zanzibar in the nineteenth century, which lasted approximately fifteen minutes.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
plasmadog
Joined: May 06, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Beantown, India
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@scotsboy
that was before all these hi tech laser guided bombs and nuclear proliferators dude.. 
nowadays 15 mins is more than sufficient to completely destroy a country like zanzibar.
it isn't the same... definitely not!
yeah.. scary thing is, nobody seems to be worried.
btw have u read clash of civilizations by samuel huntington.??
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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@plasmadog
I haven't, but a very good book I can recommend to you is 'On War' by Carl von Clausewitz. It examines the concept of 'total war', quite interesting when one considers it was written in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars and it is still very relevant to modern wars.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
amagab
Joined: Oct 29, 2002
Posts: > 500
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Yes, that is a good book indeed!!!
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Londinium
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[addsig] |
axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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THIS IS HOW THE AMERICAN AIR FORCE KILLS INNOCENT CIVILIANS IN IRAQ
The pilot says to command "I've got numerous individuals on the road you want me to take those out" gets reply "Take them out" after bombing them says "oh dude"
CLICK HEREWindows Media Player Format
[addsig] |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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The audio on that clip seems a little TOO clear.... I do wonder about it's authenticity.
If it does happen to be 100% authentic, then it's not really a surprise that so many people have been against this war, and why the US is still having so many problems.
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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Bjerkebanen
Joined: Feb 26, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: El culo del mundo! OSLO NORUEG
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I think Scotland will win the golf war.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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We have oil, we had best watch out! 
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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So, @scotsboy, where are your weapons of mass destruction? You'd better destroy them or we'll 'shock and awe' you into submission!
We have it from our trusted intelligence sources (Just out of Uni) that you have stockpiles of nerve agents, nuclear materials, haggis, and deep-fried Mars bars.
If these aren't destroyed immediately, we will enforce 'regime change' and knock Hampden park down for good measure!! 
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Londinium
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Sammy-boy said:
The audio on that clip seems a little TOO clear.... I do wonder about it's authenticity.
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Why do you always have to always suggest that somehow that the americans are the innocent party here,and everyone else out they are hell bent on making or creating elaborate hoaxes against them..by the way that clip above is a official pentagon released clip taken from the an american news site..I can recall back when the Abu-ghraib prison scandel broke out that it was said that somehow it was all a lie made to make the american look bad..Just for the record the Americans have a extremely poor human rights record in in all Vietnam wars aswell as the Gulf wars..You only have to look at the majority of innocent prisoners held at Guantanemo bay and the daily torture and abuse they have to suffer to see how humane the american army and the government really are..A lot of even worse american atrocities are yet to be uncovered in Iraq.I would trust saddam more than g.bush...these atrocities are just the tip of the iceberg..
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boto43
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Trnava-Nitra,Pardubice CSSR
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Yes,I think we can compare Bush to Saddam now,after these all things what have happened in Iraq.Anyway US presence in IRQ is very sad history of USA. 
ja cejtim se bejt esatem sk podvedenej  |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@boto43
You seem to be making a very sweeping statement with no evidence to back it up. Whilst the U.S. led coalition's occupation of Iraq has been fraught with difficulties we should not forget that ordinary Iraqis do have a lot more hope for the future. If the current insurgency can be put down and the violence brought to a halt then Iraq has a very prosperous future to look forward to.
Iraq has large oil reserves and in time these can hopefully be used to enable Iraq to become a wealthy nation able to provide for its citizens. That the U.S. has committed atrocities in Iraq is indeed very sad, most especially for the Iraqis, but we should not let the actions of a few cloud our judgement, the vast majority of American and Coalition troops are very professional men and women who are prepared to sacrifice their lives for a greater good, no matter how misguided it has been.
It is the shameful way in which the politicians have behaved that is the biggest crime of all. I supported the war in Iraq, not because I believed Saddam posed nay great danger to the West, but because I was sure that the world would be a much better place without him in power and I still hold to that view. Tony Blair wouldn't be in such a bad position just now if he had declared that the war was to remove Saddam instead of focusing on WMDs, which the intelligence was patchy on.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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@axxxr -
I'm not standing up for the Americans per se, I guess I'm playing devil's advocate a little!
Continuing my devils' advocate line, you said to me earlier in this thread about not believing everything I see/hear in the media, I could say the same back to you with regards to all these American websites, perhaps run by people with their own (hidden?) agendas themselves. You say the clip came from the Pentagon and on a US news site - how do you know? I keep getting these chain emails claiming that they're been tracked by Microsoft, Yahoo, etc., but they probably aren't! 
I do however agree totally with your comment on the Abu Giraib (excuse spelling) jail - I could not believe my eyes when I saw US soldiers doing that to people. They lowered themselves to Saddam's level at the very least. If the US had any credibility left in the Middle East (which I doubt) they would have lost it all after that scandal broke.
I hope you don't mind me keeping you on your toes mate, just having a good debate. I don't get much chance for one of them!
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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Posted: 2004-07-14 17:02
