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Other bad news from Iraq. |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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Time will not solve the problem, only people can solve the problems we now face. The Arab-Israeli conflict has been going on for almost sixty years now with little sign of it coming to an end, time hasn't solved much there. If we want real peace then we must act decisively.
It is absolutely no use pandering to people, there are far too many left wingers out there who want to help everyone and far too many right wingers who want to bomb everyone. We must combine both and actively try to end the strife that plagues so much of the world.
We cannot barge into Iraq and say how good it is that a tyrant has been deposed when we do nothing about Mugabe in Zimbabwe or the oppressive regime in Burma as well as many other dictators and autocrats around the world who oppress their people. Negotiating with these regimes is seldom beneficial, I make note of the recent exception of Gadaffi, although I would still like to see democracy in Libya. Oppressive regimes the world over thrive on fear and intimidation, it is how they maintain their power, people from eastern Europe old enough to remember the communists should appreciate this.
There is far too much talk in the West about doing something about the state of the world; we must actually start doing instead of just talking. It's ridiculous that Islam, or any religion for that matter, should be blamed for terrorism and the Middle Eastern troubles, it is a hardcore group of fanatics, on both sides, who wish to see such a war propagated. Neither the Palestinian nor the Israeli people want their children killed or their property destroyed, and yet their leaders do nothing but attack one another and throw accusations and insults. As I said in my last post, an international force should impose peace upon them; if they can't resolve this matter in almost sixty years then the rest of the world should jolly well make them. An end to that issue would take away a huge part of the terrorist's reasoning for hating America as a free Palestinian state could have as much or as little to do with Israel and America as it wished.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC | |
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Vlammetje
Joined: Mar 01, 2003
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From: Den Haag
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Quote:
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On 2004-04-16 14:10:26, boto43 wrote:
@ hey vlam, democratic or better capitalist media lies the same way like communist one. I can say it 'cause I use to live in both social order, but u have never ..
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........ so I can't say it? 
Well tough luck.... I JUST DID! 
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@boto43
Wasn't that the point she was making?
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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Hussein attacked and invaded kuweit cos of the oil. Bush jr attacked and invaded iraq cos of the oil. A situation is always relative. Wargames for adults.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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What is your point?
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
boto43
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
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From: Trnava-Nitra,Pardubice CSSR
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Ok, now I've read all vlam's story and understood. Sorry.
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Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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@scotsboy:
"The Arab-Israeli conflict has been going on for almost sixty years now with little sign of it coming to an end, time hasn't solved much there. "
- It's been going since biblical times! Okay, perhaps not necessarily the Israelies, but there's been various 'crusades', I think the British had problems with that area before it became Israel in 1948, it's always caused conflicts. It probably has something to do with the fact that it is sacred to both Christian and Muslim faiths. Why can't we just share it!? Most people in the world were surely taught to share when they were kids?
That situation over there seems like one kid's snatched the cookie jar and won't give any to the other kid. The kid with the cookie jar has all the cookies, so therefore won't give any to the other kid, who screams, shouts, and throws a strop as he can't have any cookies. They need someone to come and snatch the jar off both kids, smack their bottoms, and tell them no cookies till they can behave themselves!
The Israelies and the Palestinians are as bad as each other.
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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Its a kind of sport for them this I HATE U, U HATE ME story. I wouldnt doubt, that in my country and around it there arent problems between nationalities, but me dont kill each other cos of it.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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I was referring to the modern dispute, but, yes, you are quite correct in saying that there have been disputes in that part of the world for millennia. The modern dispute began when Britain committed itself to setting up a Jewish homeland after WWI, although this wasn't implemented fully until the creation of Israel. The Israeli's started a guerrilla campaign against the British before forming Israel in 1948, after which there were a series of wars between Israel and the Arab countries surrounding it. It was during one of these wars that Israel seized territory from the Arab states and began colonising it, thus the modern dispute over the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
I support neither side in this appalling struggle because quite frankly neither of them deserves support from anyone. They have had almost six decades from the inception of the modern Israeli state to sort this mess out and they have bothered themselves one jot. It is quite clear that there will never be peace in the Middle East unless some outside force (U.S., NATO, EU, etc) can impose a settlement on the various parties involved and enforce it.
Remember that Israel has nuclear weaponry, Iran is suspected of being able to produce nuclear weaponry and Pakistan actually has them, hence we have a situation in which nuclear armed powers on opposite sides of a religious war have no feasible method or genuine desire (as it currently stands) for peace. I for one am quite glad that Iraq has been invaded and Saddam ousted, although there is chaos in the short term, the long term benefits far out way the problems we now face. I still believe that the government (British) have been up to some chicanery when it comes to the reasons for invading in the first place, but now that it's done it is a good thing. We must hold out in Iraq and defeat the rebels, and then a stable democratic system can be established. A democratic Iraq could act as a stabilising force in the Middle East and hopefully encourage other Middle Eastern states to become more democratic.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
Vlammetje
Joined: Mar 01, 2003
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From: Den Haag
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democracy is a nice empty word isn't it.
If TRUE democracy would have prevailed....... there would be no armed forces in Iraq at all 
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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It's the best we have, however flawed it might be; mind you I would take British democracy, or for that matter any European democracy, over American democracy any day of the week.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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Oh yes, hagana was a very useful organisation for israel. However, we have to remember and look at them as heroes...
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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@bobafett
Sarcasm aside, certain sections of Israeli society probably do see them as heroes. If you look at it one way then they were freedom fighters battling against the oppression of their imperial overlords. However, I can tell you this, if it wasn't for Britain then Israel wouldn't exist, yet the very same people whom Britain initially helped, turned against Britain and killed British troops. This really wasn't necessary as Britain was committed to full independence for Israel anyway and was in the process of leaving.
Current Israeli policy is little better, they don't seem to grasp the fact that force by itself does not work against fanatics. I wholeheartedly agree that Israel has every right to defend itself and that they should attack terrorists, however, they also need to compromise. The real problem is the Jewish settlers who build their settlements on Palestinian land, the Israeli army then has to defend them when Palestinians attack their settlements and this in turn causes more violence. This isn't just a Western view, large tracts of the Israeli population resent the way the settlers behave and there is even a political party in Israel, which obtained a substantial amount of support, which advocates this view.
On the Palestinian side we have fanatics telling people that by blowing one's self up one is doing God's work and will be rewarded in Heaven. Palestinian children are indoctrinated from early on to believe that killing Jews is a good thing. Clearly this is a very dangerous state of affairs as it breeds violence and hate in each generation, there is no dialogue because religious fanatics portray anything other than complete hatred for Israel as being in league with the Israelis. The Palestinians have no other means to fight the Israelis than terror tactics because, in a conventional battle, they are no match for the Israelis and their US made weaponry. Similarly the Israelis enjoy massive aid grants from the US, the Palestinians by comparison are living in poverty, yet another cause for resentment and hatred.
It's a ridiculous conflict that should have been ended long ago, it's unfortunate that Britain isn't still the dominant world power, conflicts like this were quickly settled, a few gunboats and a battalion of men were enough to ensure the peace anywhere in the world. I don't say this to be flippant, but because it's true.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
switchbitch
Joined: Apr 29, 2003
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From: ELF Pap Cop (Avatar pending)
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My grandad was one of the chaps who landed on the beach at Normandy. So i am in total agreement with you there old boy.
[addsig] |
BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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@scotsboyuk think they will fight with each other as long they just can. But it will be interesting what after the dead of arafat will happen. He still can control the situation, without him it would be more worse.
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Posted: 2004-04-16 14:24
