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The Future of SE's Java Platform |
deluded
Joined: Sep 14, 2005
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Excellent posts here in this thread. I think I've learnt very much more about the Java platform just by reading this thread. To be honest, I think Esato could do with more such threads, just like it used to.
@WildNomad, great post, it was very enlightening. Thanks! I'm not much of a programmer myself, but I believe there's great potential in Java. | |
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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On 2007-12-17 05:50:45, mib1800 wrote:
@max_wedge
Unless SE rebuilt the A100/200 OS to be in entirely Java-based (i.e. the entire phone OS services are run ON TOP of JVM) otherwise the Java is mixed bag (i.e governed by api). If the underlying OS is non-multitasking like A100/200, then nothing Java/JVM can do to save the day (so to say). So it is not correct to say with more advanced Java API, SE A100/200 can approach the capability of Symbian based UI/OS.
Not necessarily. Provided the necessary api are implemented then in theory you could design a JAVA UI that sits on top and replaces the "main menu" application.
In a desktop environment the same thing happens. MS develop apis that mean developers can utilise the system without directly interacting with the hardware. You can even replace the "explorer" shell with a UI of your own design.
You use the word "approach". J2ME is already approaching the functionality of symbian UI's. There are only some key areas left that need to be covered by JAVA apis.
For example it would be possible to design a menu system that has virtually all the functionality of an advanced user interface. The key deficiency at this point seems to be sms and phone call functionality. Other than that, it would be possible to design an all in one UI that can access pda functions (or replace), multimedia, internet, manage files, and many other aspects. Theoretically, as internet fees fall, even J2ME voip systems could be developed to obviate the need to use the A100/A200 menu system at all. ExploreME is a early example of this (though still very limited).
To show how JAVA can be a powerful application platform, I use the example of multime - a multi-task environment for java that runs on pre-JP8. In other words a JAVA program that can run multiple java apps within itself, allowing the end user to multitask between them. Multime creates multiple virtual machines within a single instance of a JVM! It doesn't require the native multi-tasking of JP8. Multime will run on a K750, though ideally it needs more power and can only support a couple of apps effectively, and it's not "true" multitasking. But it shows that the limit to java is more the creativity of developers and the available apis, rather than any theoretical restrictions. As the handsets become more powerful, so do the Java apps.
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Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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From: Toronto, Ontario
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Main Menu interface limitation is already solved. We already see this in the Blackberry GUI. its called XML > RIM uses XML files to restrict/allow Theme layouts according to provider or by themselves (Plemex) or arrangement of icons.
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Chaudhry
Joined: Nov 23, 2007
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I like java too its simple to use and easy to install  |
aksd
Joined: Nov 11, 2005
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@max
Java can be developed as an independant UI, it was showcased by Motorola earlier this year on an E6, you'll see something along those line from Motorola next year where the UI will be customizable, I think at least.
Generally speaking, the largest dis advantage from a programmers point of view in developing Java or .Net apps for a matter of fact is the increased process time, since the code is translated from Programming code - Byte Code - Machine code. But writing an app has never been as easy it is as it is with Java, so I guess for the smaller apps Java would be the way to go but as you go bigger and bigger, the processing power on our phones is'nt enough to have smooth running of the programs.
@all
There is no such thing as a Java OS as far as I know, how exactly can you have a JAVA os I fail to understand, you need to have the core OS natively associating with the hardware, drivers etc..
Also as far as Java having a future, I'm not sure if many of you know this but the "fabled" linux OS of tomorrow, ie Android runs only Java apps of CDC type(although I do know of some developers who have figured out how to run native apps on it already lol). So if Android hits it off, Java goes big time  .
@Prom
JUIX as LJ is not dead at motorola, EZX is dead and so is the non-touch screen version of EZX, which runs on the E2(which can be reffered to as JUIX, which paved the way for current LJ phones). LJ is still going to be developed upon as far as I know.
A cool fact for all the Java enthusiasts, I found this really cool JVM for my TyTyn2 that allows youto run J2SE apps to an extent, its got console support too, I was able to run several small apps I have run using SWING api and stuff on the JVM, havent tried with any big stuff, but if this knid of thing goes maint stream, it'd be so awesome, same app for your desktop and your phone .
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Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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JP (whats its full acronym, anyway) is still Juix to me. If no 3G is enabled its still playing with the same Linux core platform.
Some news on CLDC & Java OS Handhelds.
HandHelds:
RIM "BlackBerry" lineup All use J2ME CLDC 1.1 as the CORE OS. It IS modified to use RIMLets instead of Applets, but its still Java, and can install j2me applications, and run several of them. ALL the current lineup & past 3-4 years run J2ME CLDC 1.x.
LG Electronics:
[quote=LG Electronics] on 11/08/2005 3:07 PM EST wrote: orea-based LG Electronics has completed development of a handset that uses SavaJe Technologies’ Java OS, and expects to begin mass producing the handset next year. SavaJe OS is an advanced open operating system for handsets, based on Sun Microsystems’ Java technology. All handset applications, including the handset UI itself, are written in Java.[/quote]
source: http://www.eetimes.com/news/l[....]icle.jhtml?articleID=173600362
I'm not sure of others (and we're talking about JVM based Java OS full blown, not running on some other platform/OS to be the core that java runs above.).
Press/News:
Sony Ericsson wins JCP Member of the Year award ( May 18, 2006, JavaOne 2006, San Francisco)
http://media.huginonline.com/[....]ssrelease?p_message_id=1051813
Also, ....
Sun shows iPhone-like Java Mobile FX platform
http://www.engadgetmobile.com[....]-like-java-mobile-fx-platform/
[quote=Engadet Mobile highlight Sun Microsystems] on May 10th 2007 1:31PM wrote: The platform Sun CEO Jonathan Schwartz showed off is already being dubbed "jPhone" based on the striking resemblance to Apple's goods. The actual product name is Java Mobile FX and it's based on code from SavaJe, a Java-centric mobile OS company Sun just completed acquiring last week. The required specs to run Java Mobile FX aren't too slouchy: 32 megabytes of RAM and a 200 megahertz ARM processor are in the spec, so forget those entry-level Nokia and Sammy handsets.[/quote]
if I find more information I'll add more.
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Supa_Fly
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Something I found REALLY interesting in comparing CDC AMS & CLDC ....
The CDC APPLICATION MANAGEMENT SYSTEM
Java™ Platform, Micro Edition
White Paper June 2005
[quote=Sun Microsystems]on June 2005 wrote: Chapter 6
Comparison with CLDC MVM
The Connected Limited Device Configuration (CLDC) Multitasking Virtual Machine (MVM) (see java.sun.com/j2me/docs/
pdf/CLDC_mvm.pdf) provides an alternate application management solution for platforms with more limited operating
systems. It basically answers the question, “What if the underlying operating system does not have the process management
facilities needed to support the application isolation model described in this white paper?” In this case, CLDC MVM
takes on application management responsibilities that the operating system cannot provide. It does so by creating multiple
application isolation contexts within a single Java virtual machine instance.
In contrast, the CDC AMS is appropriate for more capable operating systems, such as Linux, that provide fast and robust
process management. By leveraging mature native process management, the CDC AMS avoids modification of the CDC
class library or applications, which would be difficult given their size.[/quote]
© 2005 Sun Microsystems, Inc., 4150 Network Circle, Santa Clara, California 95054 U.S.A. All rights reserved.
Now I understand why Java OS devices like the BlackBerry, when switching applications can cause an "hourglass" to spin for a few seconds. Its STILL multitasking as CDC just not as powerful, as CDC allows for native applications (C++, C+, or C# maybe) to be run on a specific Handheld (PDA, micro laptop like an Asus EEEPC).
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Supa_Fly
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I wanted to give this special thread a bump even though the topics discussed was some 2yrs ago ... its possibly just as significant now as it was then due to Android becoming the focus of  's lineup and current OSE-A2 users wanting a serious upgrade for powerful abilities without the complexities of many smartphone platforms out there.
Give this thread a solid read, even over the slow times during the day and bookmark it for future reading you may find some interesting ideas, debates, and pointers that may help progress OSE even further to survive in the sea of ever growing smartphone products.
I'm an old timer fan of Ericsson & SonyEricsson phones - being picky with specifics in design and features. Although I now own a Bold 9700 its as close to J2ME a smartphone can get, and with RIM using J2ME modified as a complete smartphone OS, and their endeavor to improve it using Flash (like Capuchin) along with the Browser before the summer ... it gives you a taste of what CAN do with OSE platform.
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Supa_Fly
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Java has been finalized for JSR271 ... MIDP3.0. Some drafts have been updated.
Source:
FAQ's
MIDP 3.0 passes FAB, Final Release coming very soon!
Brian Deuser - 12/01/2009 12:03 PM PST
MIDP 3.0 RI, TCK, & Spec now available!
Brian Deuser - 12/17/2009 12:43 PM PST
JSR 271 Change in Maintenance Lead
Brian Deuser - 01/11/2010 10:24 AM PST
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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So Java is still not dead, despite some predictions in this thread...
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Raiderski
Joined: Jul 03, 2006
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it's not dead but it's going down. non-smartphones will use it for a long time
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pavoo
Joined: May 03, 2007
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From: The 3rd World
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is not going down since its everywhere in this world
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Raiderski
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1. we are talking about mobile J2ME, not Java on desktop PC, servers etc.
2. smartphone OSes are stronger and cheaper than ever before
3. J2ME is not atractive for developers and mobile manufacturers any more
4. very poor abilities of J2ME platforms (runtime environment inside propertary OS) compared to native code applications
5. "write once, run everywhere" - nice idea killed by many awful J2ME implementations
6. porting and testing of many versions of one game for many devices - time-consuming, very laborious and costly
7. dispersed distribution system for J2ME applications, high cost of distribution, lack of protection against piracy and so on
8. many J2ME programmers lost their job or they had to adapt to new realities (iPhone dev)
9. most developers throws most of human resources from J2ME to iPhone dev
10. some developers abandoned Nintendo Wii for iPhone dev because of better ratio of development costs and profits
you're right J2ME is not going gown, it is dying. me = former J2ME programmer, still active in game dev industry
[ This Message was edited by: Raiderski on 2010-02-26 18:09 ] |
Supa_Fly
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From: Toronto, Ontario
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@Max,
Glad you're still around, hope all is well! Also I'm finally going to give it a full try to learn this Java ... the code of the internet which has flourished the fatest of any code.
On 2010-02-26 11:20:13, Raiderski wrote:
it's not dead but it's going down. non-smartphones will use it for a long time
You're forgetting there are at least 3 smartphone platforms based on java:
BlackBerry
JavaFX
* I forget the other one.
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Supa_Fly
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On 2010-02-26 19:05:07, Raiderski wrote:
1. we are talking about mobile J2ME, not Java on desktop PC, servers etc.
2. smartphone OSes are stronger and cheaper than ever before
3. J2ME is not atractive for developers and mobile manufacturers any more
4. very poor abilities of J2ME platforms (runtime environment inside propertary OS) compared to native code applications
5. "write once, run everywhere" - nice idea killed by many awful J2ME implementations
6. porting and testing of many versions of one game for many devices - time-consuming, very laborious and costly
7. dispersed distribution system for J2ME applications, high cost of distribution, lack of protection against piracy and so on
8. many J2ME programmers lost their job or they had to adapt to new realities (iPhone dev)
9. most developers throws most of human resources from J2ME to iPhone dev
10. some developers abandoned Nintendo Wii for iPhone dev because of better ratio of development costs and profits
you're right J2ME is not going gown, it is dying. me = former J2ME programmer, still active in game dev industry
[ This Message was edited by: Raiderski on 2010-02-26 18:09 ]
1. > BlackBerry is a licensed Java J2ME & CLDC Java OS ... augmented but still Java to the core.
2. & 3. > you are VERY wrong here. See above ^ and also see how quick this can be developed and look harder at MIDP3 and you'll see its just as everybit as powerful as any other C+/C#/Objective-C based OS ... and MUCH more security than any alternative!!
4. I can run Native J2ME applications - most on my BlackBerry (less so on OS5 due to the increases in augmentation).
5. The write once run anywhere is still possible and for the most part. Any issues with simply running & portability is because of the ability of manufacturers allowed to license and augment the core VM. This is not SUN's fault if write once run aware doesn't work. However the code is so much easier to run on other platforms than what I've read thus far.
6. I cannot agree even more! This is why using an established, secure and proven platform like Java J2ME/Java SE/Java EE (for Enterprise servers) makes perfect sense. You're already seeing the faults of WM, S60, and Android apps not able to run from one device to the other EVEN with the same layout. We can go on forever about how many apps are available on said plaform/device vs another ... but in reality developers go where the marketing hype is because that's where the money will flow!!
7. hehe ... show me 1 java app deployed on AppWorld that has been pirated?!
You wouldn't believe how easy it is for me to pirate Apple iPhone apps after 1 purchase ... AND I get to do so using iTunes. Most of the J2ME apps where pirated on iPMart because the vendors had poor site security and where hacked way too easily. And don't get me started how easily the community for S60 2ND Edition FP2/3 outdid all the N-Gage QD games ... every single one! Going to 3rd Edition was supposed to alleviate the issue ... that didn't work too well or for too long. WM same thing. The REAL issue with piracy on any platform is lack of tight user controls. Having 1 distribution through a cloud service AS the platform began is what Apple contributed to the industry and THAT is how iPhone really changed the game - touch on capacitive would've evolved soon after anyway.
9. See my point 6 above.
Also their resources cannot be easily thrown ... you MUST have an intel based Mac in order to develop for iPhone OS because the iPhone/iPod and now iPad OS development environment XCode ONLY works on Mac OS X. Buying an iMac/MacBook/Mac Pro is VERY expensive alternative before running on an existing windows platform.
10. Yes when development Wii costs just as must as a MacMini with ION chipset.
And what are you developing for now?! iPhone ... unless you already have a Mac then its not a cheap migration.
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Posted: 2007-12-19 05:42
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