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Sony Ericsson should produce more mid-end symbian series 60 smartphones |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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yes but there is a certain amount of development time that goes into these things.
But the biggest factor is that there is no evidence that SE have committed to smartphones in the short term, hence the possibility it could be two years or more. | |
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@max
Everything under control I see. Jolly good.  No need for my input then ... yet. 
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@scotsboyuk:
remember the last round, correct me if I am wrong, i vaguely remembered you arguing that smartphone does not give any advantage when selling in 3G. Here is something for you to digest. The news is that Nokia (a latecomer to 3G) has taken the lead in 3G handset sales.
Is this too much of a coincident that all of Nokia 3G handsets are smartphone. And the 6680 was voted the best 3G handset. Maybe you can give your take on why Nokia and not SE (which have a headstart in 3G) that achieved this feat.
Link here:
http://www.mobiletechnews.com/info/2005/08/23/112012.html
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Nokia Seizes Number One Position in Global 3G Phone Market
According to the latest research from Strategy Analytics, a total of 9 million WCDMA (3G) phones were shipped worldwide during the second quarter of 2005 (April to June). Nokia topped the list of vendor-rankings for the first time, with a 17 per cent global share.
Chris Ambrosio, Director of the Strategy Analytics Wireless Device Strategies service, noted, "At 17 percent, Nokia's 3G market share is almost half its overall global total of 33 percent. WCDMA (3G) technology, which accounted for just 5 per cent of total handset sales during Q2 2005, remains a market in the early stages of development, but it is worrying for a cluster of aspiring Asian vendors that Nokia has already become best in class. Early market-leaders NEC and LG have been overtaken by Nokia and they have significant work to do to match up in the next battle for WCDMA phones priced below US$200 wholesale, which will present significant mass-market opportunities in 2006 to 2010."
"Strategy Analytics' Advanced Buyer Panel recently rated the Nokia 6680 as the best-in-class 3G phone in Western Europe." added Neil Mawston, Associate Director, Wireless Device Strategies. "Step by step, Nokia is regaining ground in high-end device segments that it has lost to Motorola, Samsung, LG and others over the last couple of years."
Other findings from Strategy Analytics' Global Handset Market Share Update for Q2 2005 include:
* Motorola continues to surge in 2.5G (GPRS), due to popular ultra-slim models, such as the V3 Razr. However, it is on the back foot in 3G (WCDMA) and it urgently needs design improvements in this segment;
* Audiovox of the US reached its highest level in CDMA handsets for two years, due to aggressive promotion from its ambitious new owner, UTStarcom.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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Quote:
| On 2005-08-26 12:32:22, mib1800 wrote:
@scotsboyuk:.
Is this too much of a coincident that all of Nokia 3G handsets are smartphone.
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No, since Nokia seems determined to shove smartphones upon anyone looking for a mobile phone.
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And the 6680 was voted the best 3G handset.
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By whom? There are a multitude of organisations, magazines and institutes, which reguarly contradict each other by voting different handsets as 'the best,' I rarely go by such awards, they are meaningless to me since I base my buying decisions upon what I actually want, not what someone else tells me to want.
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Maybe you can give your take on why Nokia and not SE (which have a headstart in 3G) that achieved this feat.
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I would imagine that it has something to do with Nokia having a higher manufacturing capability enabling it to manufacture more handsets for people to buy along with the fact that SE has only had one 3G handset active for the past year or so and has only now released a second.
Nokia is a more popular brand, more people buy Nokia handsets than those of other brands. Hence more Nokia handsets are sold hence more Nokia smartphones are sold hence more Nokia smartphones, which are 3G are sold.
It's really rather simple actually. The biggest companies usually sell more products you see. SE has done well with 3G, but has had too few handsets available whilst LG was leading the market, but only really because of the fact that the likes of 3 were practically giving them away (interestingly enough 3 are also doing this with Nokias).
I believe we have already been through all of this. You will forgive me if I choose to cut and paste portions of previous posts should I feel the need to.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-08-27 03:18 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
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@scotsboyuk:
6680 award: i think it's mentioned in article. The award is not important but the sales figure is. Nokia smartphone sales is up >200% in Q2 compared to last. So 3G is trending smartphone sales (at least for Nokia)
Not trying to go over old points with you. like you say, many who bought smartphone may not be using those features. Similarly for 3G. But to the industry as a whole these figures matter.
Will be interesting to see in the next few months whether the trend will continue as Nokia would have 6630/6680/N90/N70/N91 3G smartphones on sale plus the 3G 6270/6280.
My guess is that it is very likely that Nokia will dominate 3G like it did in smartphone (because both go hand-in-hand). Not that this is a good thing.
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govigov
Joined: Jul 30, 2004
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From: Back home - Cochin
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it is a pain in the ___ to use the p series with only one hand.. so i agree... i wud definitely appreciate a non touch screen smart phone... and right now 6680 / 6630 seems good
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whizkidd
Joined: May 14, 2004
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From: India
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Ah! There you are govi! Now you know why i am so attracted towards s60!
T230 >> T610 >> Ngage QD >> N73 >> N85 >> Omnia HD >> And countless other review units |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-27 04:57:38, mib1800 wrote:
@scotsboyuk:
6680 award: i think it's mentioned in article. The award is not important but the sales figure is. Nokia smartphone sales is up >200% in Q2 compared to last. So 3G is trending smartphone sales (at least for Nokia)
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It is too early to say for definite whether or not it is the smartphone or 3G side of the handset that is pushing the sales. If one looks to Nokia sales on a network like 3, for example, then one finds that they only sell 3G there because that is all 3 sell.
If we examine the case of 3 in the UK there is a strong case to be made that people are not buying any of their handsets for business purposes beyond phone calls, texts, etc because there is no full internet access or modem data capability.
3G handsets tend to be getting the hard sell approach from all the 3G networks and since Nokia actively market in more countries and have more products available at lower prices I would argue that this is a strong factor. LG by comparison have basically the same product in aslightly different variations, which really isn't conductive to winning over a broad spectrum of customers now that 3G handsets aren't quite the behemoths they used to be.
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Not trying to go over old points with you. like you say, many who bought smartphone may not be using those features. Similarly for 3G. But to the industry as a whole these figures matter.
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Here I agree with you, but again I think one has to be cautious. Many people may be buying these handsets simply because they got a good deal on them with little or no intention of using either smartphone or 3G features. The industry simply wants people to convert so they probably don't actually care too much at this stage, but then they will want people to start using their services so as to gain more revenue so it will matter in the long-run.
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Will be interesting to see in the next few months whether the trend will continue as Nokia would have 6630/6680/N90/N70/N91 3G smartphones on sale plus the 3G 6270/6280.
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I suspect that Nokia will probably continue to see 3G growth and increase its 3G market share. LG will probably start losing 3G market share unless it can diversify its product line. SE will probably increase its 3G market share based on a few new 3G handsets to be released over the next few months.
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My guess is that it is very likely that Nokia will dominate 3G like it did in smartphone (because both go hand-in-hand). Not that this is a good thing.
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I'm not terribly sure they will or that do, not at this stage anyway. Both smartphones and 3G are at an early stage of development and inception in terms of market penetration and user uptake rates. All the evidence we have at the moment suggests that people aren't really all that excited about such advanced features in so far as most people don't use their mobiles to their maximum potential.
The 3G market is still very much taking shape with some of the bigger players having made relatively little impact yet e.g. Motorola, Samsung, etc. I think it's far too early for us to have gained any real picture of this situation, we have only really seen the opening salvos.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
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scotsboyuk:
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I'm not terribly sure they will or that do, not at this stage anyway. Both smartphones and 3G are at an early stage of development and inception in terms of market penetration and user uptake rates.
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It is not that early. Last year smartphone was something like 3%. This year it is about 8-10%. 3G is at 5%. both are more than doubling every year. I think it would be realistic to say saturation level is maybe at 30% and this is not that far away.
I agree with you operators are pushing these phones out cheaply in the hope that people will take up 3G services. I think the day where buyer says "ah I want use 3G services so I must buy a 3G phone" is still some way off.
btw: do you know how are SE 3G phones doing?
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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Mib: "I agree with you operators are pushing these phones out cheaply in the hope that people will take up 3G services. I think the day where buyer says "ah I want use 3G services so I must buy a 3G phone" is still some way off. "
I completely agree. Infact, that is the part of the premise of my argument that SE still have time to prepare their smartphone strategy, and to increase the smartphone proportion of their line-up, and still be competitive against Nokia when they do so.
I believe you could equally say "ah I want use smartphone features, so I must buy a smartphone" is still some way off. " (ducks....)
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mario2002
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
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From: Jeffrey's-Bay ,South Africa
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After reading thru most of the posts of this tread,I can't help to ask:should nokia and se change places (reliability wise),would you have posted the way you did ? Nokia is top and se bottom because the way they do their things .You should criticise if you want/expect a change and not look for excuses.(the managers and directors make/have plenty)Greetings from South Africa.Mario ;-)
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Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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From: Toronto, Ontario
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Quote:
| It is too early to say for definite whether or not it is the smartphone or 3G side of the handset that is pushing the sales. If one looks to Nokia sales on a network like 3, for example, then one finds that they only sell 3G there because that is all 3 sell. |
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Funny thing is you just answered what will happen in the future. Someone else mentioned that people tend to buy more Nokia phones, because Nokia tends to put more phones out there; or sorry, that Nokia intends to force smartphones down everybody's neck so to speck - thats how I interpreted, sorry.
Well long ago Nokia was an Underdog and Ericsson was near the king of the wireless phone castle. Nokia decided to start changing phones with colors - because their engineers at a bar couldnt tell who's phone was who's after drinking. Since then customizing began in full (case's straps, pouches, etc). This helped them buy selling 1 phone platform in different wrappers if you will buy saving costs, and making money. When networks realized the sales frienzy they started longer more fruitful partnerships. ie. Almost, if not EVERY, network in the world carry's Nokia, Motorola, or SonyEricsson phones!
Currently with the billions of dollars spent to make 3G in Europe common place, the "average" user doesnt find any use for the exhorbant costs of using the features. The strange thing is 3G features are best aligned with smartphones.
Video calling with video voice messaging answering systems linked to your phone line. streaming of various formats of video to your phone, as more and more people are becoming mobile. Updated Soccer scores & live "player cards" that get updated with the latest stats, or a video clip of a striker putting his footy on the mark. Hearing impaired able to do a video call while relaying their email to the other person on the video line! The bounds are as endless as the imagination. K750 is a great phone - finally got to use one this weekend and I'm impressed that certain features in my T39m have returned after missing from the K700i; but even that phone acts more like a "smartphone" that ANY of Ericsson's or dumb Nokia phones before it. Like Max said, this trend will continue maybe until the "smartphone" and dumb phones become one.
For any company to get big, it must first listen to its customers and deliver what the majority of them want, improving on the last product launched. Nokia have been doing this for years. SE did it with the P800 - god what an ugly phone, but the P900/910 are pure elegance. SE is doing it again with the K750/W800 - but with the K750/800 its taken a step from the Nokia old book. Make a segmented phone with different casings, ship one with features (limited & presented only by firmware) & more external memory than the other, and price them accordingly. Lastly, make significant partnerships with big networks to help theirs & your bottom line - D750 of Tmobile anyone??
Boys Nokia did good with the 6680 from the flop of the 6630, give credit where credit is due, please! |
mustafabay
Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Egypt
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I really don't see why it should take SE to stabalise their smartphones. UIQ wasn't unstable when it came out and I don't think UIQ3 will be either.
As for nokia taking the lead with 3g, well that's simple to answer. Most comanies in 3g just market their handsets in countries that have 3g. Nokia markets the 6630, for exapmle, everwhere. The 6630 is selling well here in Egypt where we have no 3g nor EDGE just because the 6600 became too common and people that could afford a more expensive phone wanted to be a little unique. We also got the 6680 although we could do just as well with the 6681 because of the lack of 3g. I definaitely agree most peole that buy s60 nokias don't know what a smartphone is. They buy s60s because they know someone that owns one too and they are wowed about the big screen and watching videos and all.
I think 2006/7 will be the years of UIQ3 for SE. By 2008 I wouldn't be surprised if most of their phones used it.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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On 2005-08-28 05:27:20, mib1800 wrote:
It is not that early. Last year smartphone was something like 3%. This year it is about 8-10%. 3G is at 5%. both are more than doubling every year. I think it would be realistic to say saturation level is maybe at 30% and this is not that far away.
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The sales we are seeing now are difficult to attribute to genuine interest in those features though. What we have is a market where Mokia is increasingly offering smartphone as part of its portfolio and where 3G handsets are increasingly being pushed on customers. What we don't have is an objective model whereby one could actually examine either and see whether customers were actually buying these products because they wanted those features rather than becaus eof the deal they are getting; that they thing the product looks good, etc.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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On 2005-08-28 07:54:05, Prom1 wrote:
Funny thing is you just answered what will happen in the future. Someone else mentioned that people tend to buy more Nokia phones, because Nokia tends to put more phones out there; or sorry, that Nokia intends to force smartphones down everybody's neck so to speck - thats how I interpreted, sorry.
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Not really. My point about the 3 network is that people don't really have a choice whether or not they buy a 3G Nokia smartphone because that is all 3 offers in terms of Nokia products. Equally there is no choice between 2.5G and 3G products with 3 because they only sell 3G products.
This model can be modified and applied to other networks to a certain extent. Where a network is offering a good deal on 3G handsets or a special tariff one has to question whether it is that incentive or the actual 3G capabilities of the handset that has attracted the customer.
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Currently with the billions of dollars spent to make 3G in Europe common place, the "average" user doesnt find any use for the exhorbant costs of using the features. The strange thing is 3G features are best aligned with smartphones.
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I agree with your summation of the costs involved, but I disagree with the smartphone alignment; I shall detail why below.
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Video calling with video voice messaging answering systems linked to your phone line. streaming of various formats of video to your phone, as more and more people are becoming mobile. Updated Soccer scores & live "player cards" that get updated with the latest stats, or a video clip of a striker putting his footy on the mark. Hearing impaired able to do a video call while relaying their email to the other person on the video line! The bounds are as endless as the imagination. K750 is a great phone - finally got to use one this weekend and I'm impressed that certain features in my T39m have returned after missing from the K700i; but even that phone acts more like a "smartphone" that ANY of Ericsson's or dumb Nokia phones before it. Like Max said, this trend will continue maybe until the "smartphone" and dumb phones become one.
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Smartphone features really aren't applicable to the majority of the population. I shan't go over old ground here (just look up one of the previous threads on this subject to read my views on this), but suffice to say that Jow Bloggs doesn't need and doesn't use most smartphone features. What would be more useful to Joe Bloggs would be a mobile, which has certain smartphone features imbedded in it. That is there is no need to install applications or a requirement to be familiar with such processes or anyhting more complex than people are already accustomed to.
Smartphones have their place, but if one looks to the numerous surveys carried out for magazines, television, newspapers, etc over the last couple of years, which look at mobile usage patterns one will find that most people aren't using their mobiles to their full potential. Most people don't seem to be all that interested in PDA features in their mobile, but rather common cultural features, which they will use e.g. video player, mp3 player, camera, calendar, internet browser, etc. Support for Excel files or the ability to remotely sync with a server are features that find mor epopularity amongst the business community than they do with the average user.
3G is certainly conductive to smartphone in so far is it offers those who would fully utilise a smartphone greater data speeds etc. 3G is also conductive to 'semi-smartphones' in that it offers the opportunity for imbedded features to reach a new level e.g. download music straight to one's handset, vide calls, etc.
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For any company to get big, it must first listen to its customers and deliver what the majority of them want, improving on the last product launched. Nokia have been doing this for years. SE did it with the P800 - god what an ugly phone, but the P900/910 are pure elegance. SE is doing it again with the K750/W800 - but with the K750/800 its taken a step from the Nokia old book. Make a segmented phone with different casings, ship one with features (limited & presented only by firmware) & more external memory than the other, and price them accordingly. Lastly, make significant partnerships with big networks to help theirs & your bottom line - D750 of Tmobile anyone??
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To a certain extent I would agree with you here. Nokia obviously realises that the bulk of their market share comes from people all over the world buying their low to mid-range handsets. Nokia do produce good low-end handsets, which have found popularity inmany of the poorer markets as well as the wealthier markets amongst customers looking for basic/cheap handsets. Nokia caters very well indeed to this market segment.
SE has only really begun aiming at this market segment and I think we shall probably have to wait a year or two before we se ehow well they actually do here.
I don't necessarily think that the K750/W800 situation was a new idea that SE have only recently considered. Up until this year SE had a relatively small product line (it is still small in comparison to other manufacturers) and so this sort of thing wasn't really going to happen. Now that SE seems to be expanding its portfolio more I think we shall see them doing this more and more with a view to appealling to as broad a range of customers as possible.
It's rather curious that many people compare Nokia and SE. It would seem more sensible to draw comparisons between Nokia and Motorola or Samsung and between SE and Samsung, for example.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC | |
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Posted: 2005-08-14 10:18
