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so who is religous here? |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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On 2005-09-08 00:19:09, pleber wrote:
scotsboyuk, when I said civilisation came from the middle east, I meant that the Garden of Eden was in the middle east, the very first humans 
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Well I think this depends onw hethe ror not one believe sin the creation story of the Bible. Personally I go with the archealogical and paleantological evidence, which shows that humans evolved in Africa before spreading to other areas of the world and that civilisation as we know it started in the Middle East, the Indus Valley and China.
It depends upon whether one beleives in the Bible literally or not I suppose. Not being a Christian I obviously don't.
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Also, most of the things you mention that the UK exports could be exports of Saudi Arabia as well, like machines etc... Food and farming account for an incredibly small amount of the U.K.'s wealth (in fact, it costs the UK with all the EU farming subsidies it pays- damn the French!!)
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Avoiding the issue of EU farm subsidies, which would likely veer us off on a tangent, I shall address the other point you made. Saudi Arabia certainly could export manufactured goods, if it had a sizeable manufacturing base. However, it isn't as simple as just building factories. Foreign companies have to be persuaded to invest and set up shop; political and economic stability are needed; a workforce with appropriate skills is required; a supporting infrastructure is necessary, etc. The UK has these things, Saudi does to an extent, but not to the same extent.
The UK also has the EU, which acts as a vast free market for UK goods, Saudi doesn't. The UK's economy is also not tied to a single product e.g. oil. The Saudi economy is heavyily reliant upon oil revenue and fulctuations in oil prices or global instability can play havoc with that. The UK doesn't suffer so much from this.
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I still think Saudi Arabia has more natural resources than the U.K., and should be richer. I think that if the U.K. was a Muslim country it would not be as rich. (I’d like to hope it wouldn’t tax as much for a start )
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I'm sorry, but this is just complete balderdash. The UK is rich because it industrialised first and conquered or controlled a quarter of the planet. The UK built itself into one of the richest nations in the world and it continues to be rich through absolutely no effort of Christianity. Can you provide any evidence to show that the UK would be poorer as a Muslim country?
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Anyway, that’s all beside the point- you have convinced me to certain extent – I still think that Islam represses wealth to an extent, and I think Christianity lends itself more to dilution of the religion and thus liberalisation and the pursuit of wealth and power. Which I don’t believe is a good thing.
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I can't say I agree with you at all. As far as I can see there simply is no evidence to identify such a link exists. Can you provide any evidence to the contrary?
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you could argue that America is the most Christian county- and its the richest! (only joking Scots )
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Well I would actually argue the opposite, that America has become inherently un-Christian and that this is what makes it richer. If you look to the right-wing politicians and religious figures who now control American politics you will see that they are very un-Christian in their ideas and policies. They advocate war as a means of resolution; they advocate policies, which will harm nature; they promote and defend weapon ownership and some of the more extreme ones go as far as to condemn gays and/or liberals. They consistently project an outlook, which is not in keeping with Christ's message of love and forgiveness.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC | |
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amnesia
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
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From: Doha, London, Tokyo, Shanghai
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Do NOT make this a my religion VS your religion thread Vanquish.
We share general comments and we can ask questions, but we shouldn't compare.
Thats why the are different religions, each with it's ups and downs.
Look at Scotsboy, he impresses me because he has his own faith, yet he tries his best to make sure he understands both, and when he did make a comparison, he compared the GOOD aspects with each other.
Take note.
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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Some people are too childish for this thread.
Anyways, back on topic. The Holy Quran states in verse 28 of Chapter 57 states:
O ye that believe! Fear Allah, and believe in His Messenger, and He will bestow on you a double portion of His Mercy: He will provide for you a Light by which ye shall walk straight in your path, and He will forgive you your past: for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
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pleber
Joined: Jul 22, 2003
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amnesia, I wasn't always linking Islam with negative things... I actually said Islamic countries had a better moral correctness and that western countries had poor morals... and I was address Peter_Kay because I had assumed (wrongly?) that he was the only Muslim posting at the time...
You say if a country is Undemocratic it has nothing to do with Islam? But lots of Muslims believe democracy to be unIslamic, so I'd say it has a LOT to do with the religion...
Please ignore my spelling mistakes...
Scots
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Anyway, that’s all beside the point- you have convinced me to certain extent – I still think that Islam represses wealth to an extent, and I think Christianity lends itself more to dilution of the religion and thus liberalisation and the pursuit of wealth and power. Which I don’t believe is a good thing.
I can't say I agree with you at all. As far as I can see there simply is no evidence to identify such a link exists. Can you provide any evidence to the contrary?
Well, as you say yourself, most christain coutries are becoming secular, and Most Muslim countries aren't... so seems quite straight foward to me that Christanity is more prone to dilution... |
PeterKay
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Verses 2 and 3 from Chapter 13 - The Glorious Quran states:
Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne of authority; He has subjected the sun and the moon to his Law! Each one runs its course for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.
And it is He who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains standing firm and flowing rivers: and fruit of every kind He made in pairs, two and two: He draweth the night as a veil over the Day. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who consider!
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PeterKay
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Chapter 14 Verses 32-34 from the Glorious Quran states:
It is Allah Who hath created the heavens and the earth and sendeth down rain from the skies, and with it bringeth out fruits wherewith to feed you; it is He Who hath made the ships subject to you, that they may sail through the sea by His command; and the rivers also hath He made subject to you.
And He hath made subject to you the sun and the moon, both diligently pursuing their courses; and the night and the day hath he also made subject to you.
And He giveth you of all that ye ask for. But if ye count the favours of Allah, never will ye be able to number them. Verily, man is given up to injustice and ingratitude.
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JK
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
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Islam does encourage wealth I think, just not the power thing. One should not be extravagent or show any pride coz of your wealth! Also to give/share with the poor. Wealth should be in gold!
Pride in its own is forbidden!! from Hairstyles to clothing , show pride...
look at Osama B Lad3n, the world can call him what they want, hes still a billionaire who is humble in his being and that chooses to sit on on the floor and eat with his hands from one dish which is customary!! Extremist or what!
Its just an example, not to be argued over pls!!!  |
PeterKay
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Talking about wealth, 'Zakat' which is one of the 5 pillars of Islam tells us to give 2.5% of our wealth each year to the poor and needy. Every Muslim follows this law, if not they are breaking the Islamic Sharia (law).
Zakat not only purifies the property of the contributor but also purifies his heart from selfishness and greed. It also purifies the heart of the recipient from envy and jealousy, from hatred and uneasiness and it fosters instead good-will and warm wishes for the contributors.
The Zakat is a form of giving to those who are less fortunate. It is obligatory upon all Muslims to give 2.5 % of wealth and assets each year (in excess of what is required) to the poor. This is done before the beginning of the month of Muharram, the first of new year. Giving the Zakat is considered an act of worship because it is a form of offering thanks to God for the means of material well-being one has acquired.
Paying zakat is Fard (compulsory). The Quran says that only those who pay zakat are in the "brotherhood of faith". The Holy Quran also says that Zakat purifies assets and creates virtue (Chapter 9 Verse 103). Zakat is a 2.5% levy on most valuables and savings held for a full year if their total value is more than a basic minimum known as nisab.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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On 2005-09-09 00:27:12, pleber wrote:
... I actually said Islamic countries had a better moral correctness and that western countries had poor morals...
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What is morality though? Morality is a perspective, what one person considers to be morally correct another does not. One cannot say that one country is more moral than another in absolute terms, one can only say it is more or less moral relative to something.
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You say if a country is Undemocratic it has nothing to do with Islam? But lots of Muslims believe democracy to be unIslamic, so I'd say it has a LOT to do with the religion...
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I'm quite sur emany Christians also believe that democracy is un-Christian and would wish for a more theocratic state, in which religion played a greater role in politics.
Perhaps many Muslims simply do not like Western democracy rather than the whole concept of democracy itself? Democracy comes in many forms.
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Well, as you say yourself, most christain coutries are becoming secular, and Most Muslim countries aren't... so seems quite straight foward to me that Christanity is more prone to dilution...
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Well if you actually look at the secularisation of Europe it has increased alongside multiculturalism and a spread of non-Christian faiths. One could hypothesise that secularisation has occurred because there are more faiths and cultures exisitng in significant strengths within secular countries. In other words those countries have chosen secularisation so as to avoid alienting anyone who is not a member of one particular faith.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
scotsboyuk
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On 2005-09-09 16:24:35, 786KBR wrote:
Islam does encourage wealth I think, just not the power thing. One should not be extravagent or show any pride coz of your wealth! Also to give/share with the poor. Wealth should be in gold!
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Is it not customary in Arabic cultures to display wealth?
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look at Osama B Lad3n, the world can call him what they want, hes still a billionaire who is humble in his being and that chooses to sit on on the floor and eat with his hands from one dish which is customary!! Extremist or what!
Its just an example, not to be argued over pls!!!
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I'm sorry, but I must take exception to this! I see absolutely no mitigating factors to condone his extremist and hate filled views by examining his eating preferences. Hienrich Himmler was a vegetarian who couldn't stand cruelty to animals, yet he condoned and participated in the murder of millions of people. How bin Laden chooses to eat has no bearing on the fcat that he actively plots to murder as many people as possible, whether they be civilians or military targets.
A poor example in poor taste and poor choice I think.
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-09-09 16:30 ] |
PeterKay
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Yep, Bin Laden's not a good example. Just the same as Blair or Bush.
All the mentioned above have killed millions under their authority. Lets try to keep the above names out of the religious thread. As they give a bad name to each religion.
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scotsboyuk
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@PeterKay
As much as I may disagree with Bush and Blair's policies, they don't call for people to be murdered nor do they deliberately target civilians either. Their actions may result in countless deaths, including civilians, but at least that wasn't the intention. Of course that does not make those deaths any less horrendous, but there is a difference in actively trying to kill civilians by design and civilians being killed by accident. Neither is acceptable to me, but the distinction is there all the same.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
PeterKay
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They're all the same, under their authority many have died and that's the bottom line. They will have to answer to the lord regarding their actions, they may get away with it in this world but definately not in the hearafter.
Chapter 63 Verses 10/11 from the Glorious Quran states clearly:
And spend something in charity out of the substance which We have bestowed on you, before Death should come to any of you and he should say, "O my Lord! why didst Thou not give me respite for a little while? I should then have given largely in charity, and I should have been one of the doers of good".
But to no soul will Allah grant respite when the time appointed for it has come; and Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do.
One death is here, their is no going back.
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PeterKay
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A few miracles of Islam:
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PeterKay
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Chapter 3 Verse 189-190 from The Glorious Quran states:
To Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth; and Allah hath power over all things.
Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding.
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Posted: 2005-09-08 13:51
