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so who is religous here? |
pleber
Joined: Jul 22, 2003
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I agree scott- last point! (does this mean I'll be getting the last word in??  )
I wasn't saying that rich countries are Christian, I was only pointing out how little rich Muslim countries there are… You say western countries were industrialised first- but why? Life and civilisation came from the middle east so how come they didn't keep up with the rest of the world?
Saudi Arabia doesn't have much resource apart from Oil? Well, that’s true, but then what natural resources does the UK have apart from Oil and Gas? Saudi Arabia should in theory be richer than the U.K., no?
I don’t know if there exists a link between religion and wealth, but there does seem to be some sort of a link...
If you take a look at rich countries (any list does really, wither it be GDP, or PPP etc), about 15 out of the first 20 are Christian (Or at least founded in Christianity... e.g. I consider the U.K. to be a "Christian" country even though Christianity has declined so much that only about 9% of its population go to Church regularly).
I know there are lots of different reasons for this; I’m certainly not saying that God is "rewarding" Christian countries- maybe the social structure of Christianity lends itself to more ambition etc? But by looking at the figures, you have to admit that Christian countries dominate the rich list for whatever reason. (Though I'm sure you'll have something to say about that!)
Ok, moving on- (tho I think its only fair to let Scot argue his point about the above
Peter_Kay - Does Islam support democracy? Is it neutral on the subject? | |
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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From: The Ummah
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On 2005-09-07 20:41:35, scotsboyuk wrote:
Perhaps we should get away from economics here, this really isn't the thread for it.
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agree with ya scots.
@pleber, democracy has a place in Islam as many other faiths but Islam has its Shariahs (laws) which cannot be broken. If they are not followed then questions will be asked in the hearafter.
What does Christianity say Pleber regarding breaking its biblical laws?
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pleber
Joined: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 200
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The Bible says that we should obey the law of the land to the point that it does not interfere with the bible teaching. The bible tells Christians how to live etc., but if you ignore these teachings and live in sin without repenting, you lose the joy of your salvation, but you still have it. So those who believe on Jesus and the salvation He provides will go to heaven.
Those that live by God's way are rewarded more than those that do not. You see, I believe in what Jesus did for me, so I am saved from hell (Even though that’s where I SHOULD be going).
If I believed on Jesus, but then didn’t follow the Bible, and do what I want, and live for myself, that is sin, HOWEVER, because Jesus has already died and took the punishment for all these sins that I've committed, it means that I don't have to. He pays the price for my sins... So when I reach heaven, I will not be judged for anything because Jesus has been judged for me..
God's salvation is perfect because it doesn’t rely on man! I'm mighty glad I'm not depending on myself to get to heaven.
That’s where I find it hard to understand other faiths that depend on good works or how you live your lift etc. to get to heaven. If it’s good works that get you there, then how much is enough? Do some people get to heaven just in no more, and others who have been a little less “religious” just miss out in no more? When can you know you have done enough to get into heaven and when can you feel certainty of heaven? I would be very miserable if I was continually uncertain if I was being “good” enough. Is there certainty in Islam? Are there Muslins that can say without doubt “I’m going to heaven”?
A lot of questions there peter_kay, but thanks in advance… |
joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
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From: Kent
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Sorry one more question about the wealth.
If say the Muslim population was based mainly in the west and the Christian population in the Middle East when all these religions first came about do you think the Christians would be poorer and the Muslims richer? Would Afghanistan be full of skyscrapers and New York be full of shanty towns (not necessarily shanty towns but hope you know what I mean)?
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[ This Message was edited by: joebmc on 2005-09-07 22:01 ] |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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quote]
On 2005-09-07 20:58:23, pleber wrote:
I agree scott- last point! (does this mean I'll be getting the last word in?? )
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Well I'll answer this and then you can reply if you like, but I'm dropping it after that. 
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I wasn't saying that rich countries are Christian, I was only pointing out how little rich Muslim countries there are… You say western countries were industrialised first- but why? Life and civilisation came from the middle east so how come they didn't keep up with the rest of the world?
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Civilisation didn't just come from the Middle East, it also began in the Indus valley region and in China, but we shall focus on the Middle East at this point.
Many Arabic empires were more advanced than their European counterparts in the Middle Ages. However, the Rennesaince unleashed a great deal of cultural and scientific advancement in Europe and this was continued into the Enlightenment. The European powers fought one another for world dominance and in so doing they obtained very large empires. These empires created vast amounts of trade and brought great resources to the European powers. Using the wealth from this trade and these new resources the European powers were able to indutrialise and in doing so they gained a technological advantage over the older empires such as the Ottoman Empire.
Because much of the world was dominated by Europe the Islamic world was largely under European control and hence developed at the pace dictated by Europeans. Obviously the Europeans powers concentrated upon their homelands first and foremost.
America, Canada, Australia, etc only really industrialised to any great extent in the 20th century. The Islamic world started industrialising later and is only now beginning to see the same sort of manuafcturing and technological capabilities as the First World.
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Saudi Arabia doesn't have much resource apart from Oil? Well, that’s true, but then what natural resources does the UK have apart from Oil and Gas? Saudi Arabia should in theory be richer than the U.K., no?
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The UK has cereals/vegetables/crops, cattle, fish, coal, minerals, forests and wave and wind energy capabilities to name a few. The UK also has a large luxury goods market. Some of the UK's exports: machine tools, electric power equipment, automation equipment, railroad equipment, shipbuilding, aircraft, motor vehicles and parts, electronics and communications equipment, metals, chemicals, coal, petroleum, paper and paper products, food processing, textiles, clothing, and other consumer goods.
The UK also has a larger population that Saudi Arabia. The UK population is also better educate don the whole with more than 99% of the population being able to read and write as well as significant numbers of the population studying for or posessing degrees. This then allows the UK to maintain a diverse range of industries and services as well as generating significant amounts of tax revenue from the population base.
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I don’t know if there exists a link between religion and wealth, but there does seem to be some sort of a link...
If you take a look at rich countries (any list does really, wither it be GDP, or PPP etc), about 15 out of the first 20 are Christian (Or at least founded in Christianity... e.g. I consider the U.K. to be a "Christian" country even though Christianity has declined so much that only about 9% of its population go to Church regularly).
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That may very well be the case, but it is purely coincidental and one must wonder at the link you claim to exist in light of the fact that most of Europe is very much secular. There is also the case of Japan, which is the world's second richest country. Japan is predominantly Shinto/Buddhist. As I said before, it is coincidence, the 'Christian' nations of Europe simply industrialised earlier and have a variety of resources to call upon.
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I know there are lots of different reasons for this; I’m certainly not saying that God is "rewarding" Christian countries- maybe the social structure of Christianity lends itself to more ambition etc? But by looking at the figures, you have to admit that Christian countries dominate the rich list for whatever reason. (Though I'm sure you'll have something to say about that!)
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See my point above. If Christianity had anything to do with increased wealth then Europe as a whole should be getting poorer since Europeans are increasingly becoming more and more secular in outlook.
Christianity doesn't even affect the politicis or economic policies of most of those rich nations. |
pleber
Joined: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 200
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Joe- I don't know what way it would be... In the old testament, huge kingdoms of massive wealth ruled the practically the whole world from the middle east- So at one point the equivalent of skyscrapers would have been where Iraq, Egypt etc are, and the undeveloped world, the west, would have been quite uncivilised and poor... So I don’t really think location is to blame that much for wealth - although if you are surrounded by poverty, it may be hard to keep your country rich... I think to more strictly adhered to a religion is, the less wealth there is because less importance is put on money - look at the Mormons in America, they are very strict religiously and while certainly not poor, they live very simply... When a country becomes more liberal, people are more consumer driven the therefore make and spend more money and put more of an importance on money, thus making the country richer. I think Islam stifles wealth, rather like communism does. And I'm not saying that is a bad thing, (lowering the importance of money that is, not communism ), because I think too much time and effort is spent pursuing wealth, and people aren't even happy when if they do achieve it. |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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On 2005-09-07 22:51:47, joebmc wrote:
Sorry one more question about the wealth.
If say the Muslim population was based mainly in the west and the Christian population in the Middle East when all these religions first came about do you think the Christians would be poorer and the Muslims richer? Would Afghanistan be full of skyscrapers and New York be full of shanty towns (not necessarily shanty towns but hope you know what I mean)?
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Who can say? The Middle East has vast potential and many of the nations there could be very very rich so I think it could go either way. It really depends upon who gets the leg up on industrialisation and trade.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
peeta
Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 147
From: Scotland
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couldn't you argue that the protestant religion shaped america into the capitalist country is today.
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cheap thing no good, good thing no cheap |
pleber
Joined: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 200
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scotsboyuk, when I said civilisation came from the middle east, I meant that the Garden of Eden was in the middle east, the very first humans
Also, most of the things you mention that the UK exports could be exports of Saudi Arabia as well, like machines etc... Food and farming account for an incredibly small amount of the U.K.'s wealth (in fact, it costs the UK with all the EU farming subsidies it pays- damn the French!!)
I still think Saudi Arabia has more natural resources than the U.K., and should be richer. I think that if the U.K. was a Muslim country it would not be as rich. (I’d like to hope it wouldn’t tax as much for a start )
Anyway, that’s all beside the point- you have convinced me to certain extent – I still think that Islam represses wealth to an extent, and I think Christianity lends itself more to dilution of the religion and thus liberalisation and the pursuit of wealth and power. Which I don’t believe is a good thing.
On a totally off-topic note- Well done Northern Ireland!!! I can’t believe we beat England!! I’m so used to supporting England in major competitions because N.I. doesn’t make it.. But I hope they both qualify for Germany, because I can’t see us going too far… (Maybe quarter finals or the semi’s )
Oh, and I can’t wait for the Ashes tomorrow! I think they are coming home!!
peeta- Do I sense a discussion on the Protestant and Catholic religion?
I don't know if its right to say that religion shaped America into what it has become... I doubt very much America is anything like what The Puritans had envisioned it would be. They came to America for peace and quiet and to get away from sinful England...IMHO although religion is a large part of life for Americans, all the motives and actions for wealth and power are not religious based... but you may have a point- you could argue that America is the most Christian county- and its the richest! (only joking Scots )
[ This Message was edited by: pleber on 2005-09-07 23:29 ] |
PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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Islam the Fastest growing religion in the World - More facts here
ISLAM is the fastest growing religion in the world. Because Islam is a complete way of life. It tells man about the purpose of his creation and existence, his ultimate destiny, his place among other creatures and more importantly, it provides him with guidance to lead a balanced and purposeful life which will enable him to avoid the Hell-fire and be rewarded with a place in Paradise in the life after death.
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pleber
Joined: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 200
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I believe you Pete, im not arguing that Islam is the fastest growing religion...
Did you get a look at my earlier post, and the questions I asked you? If you get a chance, I'd be very interested in your perspective... thanks.
(Also pete, do you think the rise in your religion has anything to do with the extencive news converage it has recieved, espically in the last 5 years?)
(And yet ANOTHER question! -a bit off-topic- Where do you believe the 9/11 hi-jackers are at the moment, heaven or hell)
thanks.. |
amnesia
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
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I can't be bothered to read long replies.
(so I dont know whats written)
@pleber, i dont know if you noticed but the words that you use are always negative and you associate them with Islam as if Islam promotes it.
If a country is not democratic, it does not have to do anything with Islam.
I just want you to read up on the religion before saying something.
Peter's been posting quite alot for you to read up on.
Now I may be thinking or looking to hard into this, in your points you repeat Peter_kays name repeatedly as if you only want him to reply to your questions.
Are you targetting him?
Also you used Japan as an example of a rich nation comparing it to religion.
Did I miss something, because last time I checked it wasn't a Christian country.
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[ This Message was edited by: amnesia on 2005-09-07 23:54 ] |
PeterKay
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On 2005-09-08 00:38:34, pleber wrote:
I believe you Pete, im not arguing that Islam is the fastest growing religion...
Did you get a look at my earlier post, and the questions I asked you? If you get a chance, I'd be very interested in your perspective... thanks.
(Also pete, do you think the rise in your religion has anything to do with the extencive news converage it has recieved, espically in the last 5 years?)
(And yet ANOTHER question! -a bit off-topic- Where do you believe the 9/11 hi-jackers are at the moment, heaven or hell)
thanks..
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@Pleber, i mentioned a few pages before that Islam is the fastest growing religion due to the media today - so as Amnesia stated, please read what was said before.
Regarding the 9/11 hijackers, if you believe the media i.e. CNN, BBC and SKY News then you will think that so called Muslims did the attacks which i still do not believe. BUT if they did do it, they will be in hell as the Quran mentions in Chapter 5 Verse 33 states:
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
So Islam does not allow any human to kill anyone and if they do then as i mentioned earlier - the day of reckoning is a MUST for all to answer to the Creator of Mankind. He has created us all for a reason and we will face questioning.
Verse 2 of Chapter 67 from the Glorious Quran states:
He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.
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vanquish
Joined: Mar 20, 2003
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On 2005-09-07 20:33:53, PeterKay wrote:
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On 2005-09-07 20:20:27, vanquish wrote:
hey this aint your thread mate, no need to tread on peoples toes. im getting mixed up with another religion. in fact im all mixed up lol.
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tut tut - never said it was my thread, at least pleber knows what he's talking about. At last a christian who knows about his faith, been waiting for so long.
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Don't you insult me or my religion, otherwise i'll make you wish you never had. I'm sorry my friend, but I can't be bothered in political or religious threads becuase no-one listens to what you say. I can never get a word in this thread so why bother? If you really want to know about christianity, its the religion that is about forgiveness. Not trying to 'get a place in heaven' by blowing yourself up or doing good deeds.
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
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If you can't be bothered please stay away from this thread.
This thread is for people who are religious.
Thank You
Bye
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Posted: 2005-09-07 20:58
