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Sony Ericsson 8.1MP C905 Discussion (Shiho) |
Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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From: Toronto, Ontario
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Ok I have a REAL and serious question regarding this phone. I'm surprised that I didn't think of it before considering the release timeline.
Q4 2008 = C905 Shiho.
Considering that this has GPS & WiFi+DLNA along with BT v2.1+EDR; this got me thinking.
Does Caphucin support MIDP3 (JSR 271) ?!!
For those that have no clue just how IMPORTANT and RELEVANT MIDP3 is ... please follow along for a in-depth reading (via Links)
* PDF by SUN:
MIDP3 What to Expect and When
http://developers.sun.com/eve[....]p3_what_to_expect_and_when.pdf
* MIDP3 Home Page at JCP:
http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=271
"Planned to be part of MSA2 (JSR 249)"
* Specification Lead: Mike Milikich, Motorola
* Sun Participants: Roger Riggs, Noel Poore
Key benefits of MIDP3 (that I've long ago posted; and inquired about the  TRUE FAN base):
Wider range of MIDlet behaviors
>background / faceless, auto-launched MIDlets
>seamless UE between native and multiple concurrent MIDlets
>application components for MIDlets
Greater UI expression, customization and more complete set of UI components
•Richer and higher performance entertainment MIDlets
•Backward compatibility with all MIDP2 content
•Finer grained and more customizable security policies
•Richer and wider range of provisioning options
>removable media (SD cards), OTA delivery media (BT)
>industry standards for provisioning (OMA DM/DS)
(KEY highlights from Sun Microsystems that MIDP3 requires and HIGHLY RELEVANT to the Capuchin and C905)
Faster CPUs (200Mhz+)
•Minimal display characteristics:176 x 220, 16 bit color
•Higher capacity RAM / Flash
•Networking – Faster, WiFi, 3GPP
•Storage – more internal storage,removable media
•User Interface – richer, multipledisplays, off-device displays
Anyone noticing a pattern here
System and Application Events
•Concurrency & Inter-MIDlet Communication
MIDlet Suites
>Packaged as single JAR
>May contain one or more MIDlets
•MIDlet Categories(JAD property MIDlet-Category-)
>Auto-Start MIDlets
>Screen Saver MIDlets
>Idle Screen MIDlets
>Game MIDlet
(if you view the PDF from the link I posted above; pay SPECIAL attention to page 9's png, although its for S60 screenshot example, you can imagine an created, supported, and tweakable homescreen).
So ... fans! Can you see how important and innovative this MIDP3 really is?! It comes VERY close to redifining the current definition of what a "smart"phone is > however for my needs its not quite there ... I need a powerful camera - S60, BlackBerry, WM (not touching it) all provides this - though Andriod hasn't shown their calendar yet, LiMo haven't seen it, MotoMAGX not powerful enough.
To the insiders, can you please, in a nonchalant way, find out if Capuchin (currently) -or- C905 specifically supports and will it ship with MIDP3 ?!! IF not, maybe down the road?!
I look forward to SE's first qwerty Capuchin phone supporting a MIDP3 JVM on a dedicated subprocessor.
EDIT: I gotta thank Max Wedge for increasing my awareness to how powerful and useful J2ME apps have become; he's been at the forefront since the dawn of the K750i launched.
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[ This Message was edited by: Prom1 on 2008-06-26 07:10 ] | |
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shyam335
Joined: May 25, 2004
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From: 127.0.0.1
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I dont see how C902 to get midp3,there are seas of changes in midp3.It takes time to implement (unless you want a broken implementation by rushing out).
MIDP3 brings significant changes,but its still java! |
aldrinus
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Philippines
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beep beep...
does anyone here know about the technical specifications of the lens?
many thanks and cheers!
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Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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From: Toronto, Ontario
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On 2008-06-26 08:57:47, shyam335 wrote:
I dont see how C902 to get midp3,there are seas of changes in midp3.It takes time to implement (unless you want a broken implementation by rushing out).
MIDP3 brings significant changes,but its still java!
I mentioned C905 not C902. Remember it Capuchin project using Flash + Java ... and teh specs are most likely, especially the release date being Oct - Dec 2008.
|AppleTV2|iPhone 12Mini 256GB|iPad Pro 256GB| Previously ...  K750|Z500|Z520|K700|K790i|K850i, :Ericsson: T18z|T28World|T36m x3|T68m (Ericsson, not the rebranded T68i). |
shyam335
Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: 127.0.0.1
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I meant C905,sorry.
Capuchin itself is a moderately large project by itself.
I think the best bet is next year.
There are a terrible lot of lies going around the world, and the worst of it is half of them are true - Winston Churchill
We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us - Winston Churchill |
-GaN-
Joined: Jan 06, 2008
Posts: 19
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so what would MIDP3 do anyway? Like change the Ui around or add stuff to the main menu or what? im lost about this MIDP3 thing |
se_dude
Joined: Nov 07, 2007
Posts: > 500
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i am sure Capuchin will be implemented in the C905 itself.Why else would SE announce both of them at the same time. |
Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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From: Toronto, Ontario
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On 2008-06-27 05:49:10, -GaN- wrote:
so what would MIDP3 do anyway? Like change the Ui around or add stuff to the main menu or what? im lost about this MIDP3 thing
@Gan, take some time on your PC when your HOME to download & read the PDF link (first) I left above, There in decent laymens terms you'll see the huge advantages of having a phone supporting MIDP3 vs current MIDP2 thats out there currently. Lets just say ... you'll wonder what we ever did without it; and new J2ME applications will become much more elegant and powerful.
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Raiderski
Joined: Jul 03, 2006
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From: Poland, Hell, Mountains
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wait, wait Prom1...
as a J2ME programmer I can agree that MIDP3 will be like a deep breath of fresh air after drowning but what exactly you mean by "WOW!" for SE fans? our phones aren't working (C905 too) on Java based OS, we are talking only about J2ME implementation inside some kind of SE OS. so, there are no benefits (nor revolution) from MIDP3 for someone who is not using Java applications on the phone
Capuchin is very interesting project however I don't see "WOW!" in it anyway
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se_dude
Joined: Nov 07, 2007
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^^^read the pdf.The SE firmware is made solely of Java.Project capuchin would involve UI changes.Better themes,more animations,support for pdf,word,support for more audio and video codecs,etc etc. |
Raiderski
Joined: Jul 03, 2006
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pdf refers to MIDP3, not to SE phones OS
The SE firmware is made solely of Java
firmware based on Java? ohh, you are very wrong. firmware owns Java implementation (platform to execute J2ME applications) and that's all
Project capuchin would involve UI changes.Better themes,more animations,support for pdf,word,support for more audio and video codecs,etc etc.
Capuchin is bridge between Flash Lite and J2ME which means that you can use Flash Lite in J2ME applications. everything is inside J2ME implementation, not inside phone firmware/OS. it they are talking about UI then they are talking about UI of J2ME apps not phone UI
[ This Message was edited by: Raiderski on 2008-06-27 12:19 ] |
Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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From: Toronto, Ontario
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On 2008-06-27 12:36:11, Raiderski wrote:
wait, wait Prom1...
as a J2ME programmer I can agree that MIDP3 will be like a deep breath of fresh air after drowning but what exactly you mean by "WOW!" for SE fans? our phones aren't working (C905 too) on Java based OS, we are talking only about J2ME implementation inside some kind of SE OS. so, there are no benefits (nor revolution) from MIDP3 for someone who is not using Java applications on the phone
Capuchin is very interesting project however I don't see "WOW!" in it anyway
I'm very hard pressed that the lot of users on Esato, after being members for more than 2mths wanting to see/use more out of their SE phones, have NOT used a J2ME app. I'm assuming, and usually a bad thing, but its not a bad concensus seeing threads here. The WOW factor means that although the SE OEM OS is NOT based on Java, this time around with Capuchin will be heavily integrated using it. For instance, the Walkman player IS BASED on J2ME - protected (I'm guessing here, but its the ONLY firmware based app, besides the Messages component, that'll show as a running app when you switch to something else. Strange). Furthermore, the WOW! becomes exactly that because we can TELL the apps to RUN upon Booting up the phone, essentially making it a smartphone: GMail auto checking for email because its launched on Bootup, and permissions already set to allow for Internet by user. GoogleMaps, PDF reader, etc.
On 2008-06-27 12:36:11, Raiderski wrote:
Capuchin is bridge between Flash Lite and J2ME which means that you can use Flash Lite in J2ME applications. everything is inside J2ME implementation, not inside phone firmware/OS. it they are talking about UI then they are talking about UI of J2ME apps not phone UI
You got MOST of this correct. Only thing you missed is that Capuchin also allows for the J2ME to use Flash Lite as well - submenu navigation  . Head of Java division specifically mentioned this at the Sun ONE conference. The speed of Shiho's menu makes me think either the cpu is vastly improved, OR Flash Lite is the menu. Coding with Flash can be VERY fast, yet when coded wrong we see sites take forever to load even. Because Shihoo will debut in Q4-2008 I'm guestimating it'll use MIDP3. The JVM will have better access to the core Firmware working in tandem.
As of now, J2ME can be coded to use Bluetooth, a sub-cpu system (control stacks, etc). I see no reason - other than if restricts the calls - to use other subsystems or even bring data from the Messaging system or Call List. You're the programmer, you'll have an idea what I'm trying to say, but it's YOU that'll create some incredible apps that ME/WE would LOVE to use. Open your .... MIND! (Matrix lol).
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Raiderski
Joined: Jul 03, 2006
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From: Poland, Hell, Mountains
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first of all, to be clear, I'm huge fan of less-restricted Java in mobile. right now even with a lot of API's J2ME application is very restrictive. I don't like this but I understand reason (security model) and I can accept it. od course we can access file system on memory, use hardware (camera, bluetooth etc.) but still running J2ME app is like a "holy cow running in JVM, keep it away from firmware"
after my experience I can say that SE (starting from K500) have really good J2ME implementation (moreover also great J2ME emulators for PC). they have potential to create something like phone OS and JVM working on equal level. well, they SHOULD do something because SE don't have right now (except UIQ and simple J2ME apps) base to gather software developers around. we are in XXI century, phone is not phone only, many people are looking for software to their devices, simple J2ME is not enough. of course we know where is SE and where are Symbian, WM, etc. applications  reaching for FlashLite developers and environment is good decision but will not be enough if application will be as much restrictive as now (OS layer, JVM layer - both "independent"). what I see in Capuchin documentation - they will be. yep, MIDP3 can improve situation a lot but SE is talking about JavaPlatform8 (8.4), so at this moment Shiho is MIDP2.1 device
right now I don't believe in tandem of multitasking J2ME applications running in OS and treated as normal (included in) firmware application. nevermind... direction can be only one - we need bigger and better software for our phones and I believe that SE know about this
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Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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From: Toronto, Ontario
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On 2008-06-27 21:12:35, Raiderski wrote:
first of all, to be clear, I'm huge fan of less-restricted Java in mobile. right now even with a lot of API's J2ME application is very restrictive. I don't like this but I understand reason (security model) and I can accept it. od course we can access file system on memory, use hardware (camera, bluetooth etc.) but still running J2ME app is like a "holy cow running in JVM, keep it away from firmware"
after my experience I can say that SE (starting from K500) have really good J2ME implementation (moreover also great J2ME emulators for PC). they have potential to create something like phone OS and JVM working on equal level. well, they SHOULD do something because SE don't have right now (except UIQ and simple J2ME apps) base to gather software developers around. we are in XXI century, phone is not phone only, many people are looking for software to their devices, simple J2ME is not enough. of course we know where is SE and where are Symbian, WM, etc. applications reaching for FlashLite developers and environment is good decision but will not be enough if application will be as much restrictive as now (OS layer, JVM layer - both "independent"). what I see in Capuchin documentation - they will be. yep, MIDP3 can improve situation a lot but SE is talking about JavaPlatform8 (8.4), so at this moment Shiho is MIDP2.1 device
right now I don't believe in tandem of multitasking J2ME applications running in OS and treated as normal (included in) firmware application. nevermind... direction can be only one - we need bigger and better software for our phones and I believe that SE know about this
Thanks for the clarification and updated info! So Shiho is a MIDP2.1 device. However, I'll disagree - if you'll allow it - on Java not being enough for a powerful OS. Look at the Blackberry's based heavily on MIDP2.0 & CDLC. Of course J2ME are changed to RIMLets instead of javalets or whatever their standardly called; its pretty much the same with a high model for security. And believe me they're are very powerful apps coming.
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Raiderski
Joined: Jul 03, 2006
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no no! I believe in Java based OS or at least OS+JVM on equal privileges (this would be nice). well, SE is going in right direction - they really believe in J2ME
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[ This Message was edited by: Raiderski on 2008-06-27 20:47 ] | |
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Posted: 2008-06-26 07:56
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