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The Future of SE's Java Platform |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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@razec and all
Forget about the OMAP 2340 they are old thier life cycle is over, SE especially needs to start getting ahead on the chips it is useing as they are even older generation and well past their sell by date IMO. Next year we will start to see the new OMAP 3 Series chip and with not only improved power consumption but also blistering speeds never before seen in mobile devices 600mhz to 1ghz with enhanced Graphics as well.
This along with the increased Data speeds HSPDA brings and the explosion of Web2.0 and content on the Internet and the rapid development of Social Networking the experience we will be able to achieve on our Mobile devices will be a quality experience.
The massive growth in Data in no longer driven by Buisness users Smart Phones are for everyone as E-Mail and Multimedia devices provide the services users want. Nokia sells more N Series Multimedia devices than E Series Business devices, smart phones are no longer about Word., Excel and purely work applications with a bit of Media thrown in. There is a whole class and range of devices that are aimed at Multimedia first and foremost.
To say if Java has a future or not i really do not know enough about it or have the wish to learn, i have never downloaded and kept a Java app not one. If Java can deliver the user experience many of you say it will then it is no different to any other OS. Again i will say just as there is no one device that is the best for everyone there is no OS either, it is only down to what each user wants and needs and likes that counts. It really is a shame some just can't seem to grasp that personally i just don't get on with WM5 the TyTN i had didn't last a week i just don't like it, maybe WM6 is much better.
I used to love UIQ and a touchscreen but i haven't used it since June 2006 for now i am happy with S60 and no Touchscreen, next year i will see who delivers the latest spec and advancements in a Package i like as things may change. I could get a P5 or a Nokia Touch UI it might even be a 3G HSDPA iPhone it could even be the Google OS devices is that Java?
The whole point is my mind isn't made up before i have seen all the options and definitely not because it is from one brand either. Currently i am curious to see how the Samsung F700 and i450 work out.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-12 02:20 ] | |
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razec
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
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From: Mars
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Forget about the OMAP 2340 and the like next year we will start to see the new OMAP 3 Series chip and with not only improved power consumption but also blistering speeds never before seen i mobile devices 600mhz to 1ghz with enhanced Graphics as well.
How about the graphics needs of todays mobile tech? do you think OMAP 3 could manage to deliver us first rate graphics thrttle as well as to outperform Imageon or GoForce High-end Application/Video/Audio/Optical in one CPUs? i really love to see Nvidia/ATI Chips rather than the TI-OMAP 3 sseries youre mentioning 
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Dogmann
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@razec
The problem is the Chips you are talking about are not built in the board with the processors maybe for some phones and Os's that will work but it looks like for Symbian devices the OMAP chips ae able to deliver the best all in one solution. It's no secret i am a fan and feel the 3 chip is going to be a big advancement, which is why if SE use the current chip i will find it very disappointing.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-13 01:18 ] |
razec
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
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From: Mars
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On 2007-12-12 03:37:50, Dogmann wrote:
@razec
The problem is the Chips you are talking about are not built in the board with the processors maybe for some phones and Os's that will work but it looks like for Symbian devices the OMAP chips ae able to deliver the best all in one solution. It's no secret i am a fan and feel the 3 chip is going to be a big advancement, which is why if SE us the current chip i will find it very disappointing.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-12 02:39 ]
No matey, GoForce 6100 is an all in one chip: it was the Flasgship of the GoForce series and embeeds applications, video, DSP, Mobile TV DVB-H, imaging processor chip in one  ATI has their own version of the 6100 competitor - also an applications processor
maybe for some phones and Os's that will work
that's why i said my previous post regarding the embeeding of hardware codes for those chips to be compatible with Symbian
youre right about OMAP being a very efficient processor chip but why don't we need more power?
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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From: London England
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@razec
Fair enough i just assumed from there name that they were just graphics chip's so what are the other details of the processors are they Arm 9/11 or from another manufacturers design? what are there clock speeds and what else do they support. Actually do you have a link to them and then i can see what else they are capable of myself.
Sorry but your last line has confused me with
"youre right about OMAP being a very efficient processor chip but why don't we need more power?"
We do need more power for the more demanding codec's and processing intensive applications and this is what the OMAP 3 series chips will deliver.
The OMAP 2420 was the most powerful chip when launched in the N93 and the first to enable VGA 30fps Video recording, even now it is still the most powerful chip found in any Symbian device. I really wouldn't say it is underpowered or a poor performer actually the opposite is true. But is now very old and towards the end of it's life cycle.
But the next generation is a big advancement as it has both lower power consumption and greatly increased speed, if the top range chip comes as expected with 1ghz that in a mobile device using 7.2mbps HSDPA. That is going to make for one pretty amazeing mobile user experience especially if you imagine that in a device with say a 3.5" to 4" 16 million colour display.
As i have said before this Year has seen the beginning of the long awaited explosion of Mobile Data but unlike previous expectations of it being Buisness driven IMO it is Multimedia that will drive the expansion and growth of users as now we will be able to replicate an at home user experience whilst mobile from this next generation of devices, interesting times ahead indeed IMO.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-12 13:42 ] |
max_wedge
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Good points dogmann, multimedia is indeed what will drive the consumer market, which ultimately is much larger than the business market.
I think J2me can keep up, as long as the industry supports it. SE have so far had a good track record of first to market with J2me apis and features, hopefully they will keep it up.
The hardware is key, and if SE don't give the adequate hardware, their J2me devices will be lacklustre compared to others.
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Supa_Fly
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On 2007-12-08 11:13:35, max_wedge wrote:
of course mate, one of my favourite Mobile related subjects
I think J2ME will only get better. Motorola and SE have pushed the j2me envelope steadily over the last couple of years and I think they see it as a legitimate way to give software vendors access to the mobile phone platform without having to extend a native smartphone os to all their range.
I disagree. Motorola have LAGGED J2ME over the years; over extending developer efforts into Linux, Windows Mobile, Symbian.
KD Player although it looks great > is limited by the OS always asking for permissions to view folders (on & on); I cannot stand that. Otherwise great app.
BlackBerry's Non standard RIMlets are based on standard J2ME code (applets). This was necessary by design for intellectual property and also to BOOST security and for provisioning over a data network to open/restrict these devices in the open (outside the company boundaries).
On 2007-12-08 13:26:32, mib1800 wrote:
max_wedge:
In due course, A200 handsets will be powerful enough to run j2me media players capable of decoding on the fly via software, currently it's handled by hardware (whcih is why j2mr players are limited only to handset supported formats)
Well, this archilles heel of java - performance. Today, many native WM/S60 (multimedia/cpu intensive) apps are struggling with performance. If these apps are develop with Java then they will crawl to a standstill. So until the time when cpu speed can outstrip the app needs, imo, Java will still take a backseat. I dont see this happening soon unless we can see big improvement in cpu speed/battery technology.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-12-08 12:28 ]
Performance is NOT the achilles he'll they way you list it. More complex GUI and formating of fonts and introduction of server+client network capability. GPS, OTA PW resets, looking up server based data (something more complex than TrackID) are just small examples. Also low speed single core and low integer performance cpu's is the TRUE achilles heal. I think performance issues will go away for many years when an OS is designed as a TRUE multi-tasking, multi-symmetric, multi-core cpu enabled unit. Right now ONLY Symbian is heading that road - announced officially any way.
Take not that J2ME is dead when it comes to core code development from Sun Microsystems. They announced this less than 3mths ago.
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Supa_Fly
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On 2007-12-09 00:19:22, NightBlade wrote:
On 2007-12-08 11:57:01, QVGA wrote:
On 2007-12-08 09:55:13, NightBlade wrote:
Yay! I hate them Symbian and WM OS'es. Too complicated and not as straightforward and good-looking as Java.
too complicated for someone like you, not the other billion population that uses WM and symbian phones.
Whilst java maybe progressing, it will NEVER be an complex and open ended as an OS, otherwise we're talking about WM and symbian becoming endangered!
Through elaborate programming, of course it can! It would be harder but not impossible by all means.
Oh, and just to make things clear, most people want good-looking and organized GUI's, unlike Nokia's.Well, OK, you're right, maybe a good 10% of the cell-phone using population does care about installing anything else than games.
NIghtblade, and to anyone ELSE going to post in this intelligent thread; just because YOU PERSONALLY do NOT like an OS' GUI for whatever reason; doesn't mean its not valuable or viable. With Nokia's S60 based devices selling MORE last quarter (effectively increasing market share on a GLOBAL scale by almost 11%) means its SELLING and it IS what ppl as a general consensus are looking for - or the power and advancements it brings. Just remember on the mobile Phone OS ONLY .... and I mean ONLY Nokia's S60 is continuously being refined and adjusted, almost on a per unit (device-to-device Gallery has been changing) case. NOT RIM, NOT Moto's JUIX, not Moto's Synergy, and until recently NOT even SE (before the K850/W910/Z750i the SAME menu system has been there for almost 3yrs, adding a 3G calling feature is necessary but hardly a GUI adjustment). Sure you comments are noted and fair, but I'm providing variances for comparison and widely known data to refute your statement .
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Supa_Fly
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On 2007-12-10 01:22:24, max_wedge wrote:
IN reply to some statements:
1. my understanding is that JAVA runs on it's own chip. I don't know why this would change with K850. The reason you can run java apps running beside phone functions is because they are running on their own chip. Likewise the music player can run while you access phone functions, or while using the camera (also on it's own chip). Since A100 and A200 are not multi-tasking os's they achieve multitasking only for functions that run on separate chips ie not in the main processor. Java itself IS mult-task capable so you can run up to 8 java programs at once.
WRONG, you proven this by mentioning about the JVM (java virtual machine) below in statement 5 below. Just because a user can LOAD 8 java/J2ME apps at a time or more (great work SE btw, something I pray S60 will allow for soon), doesn't mean the OS, or the JVM in this case is Multi-Tasking. Example I can load TrackID and tell it to record a sound and look on the db for the songs title/artist etc. Sure if I minimize this app it'll do this in the background. However if I jump to AlphaWing2 (which already loaded) I return to it in PAUSED mode. Same for any other game. I cannot get TrackID to work on my K790a so I cannot test it looking for data on the network while loading a page in Opera Mini4. HOwever I tried loading a page in Opera mini 4 over EDGE and looking in the NetFront browser simultaneous at full strength. Of course I cannot exit NetFront without loosing the browser data, but when that page finished (diff pages of course), Opera was not yet finished. 28Kb page in Opera, 88Kb page in NetFront. I believe SE's JVM pauses Java network querries over core functions that use network querries. That said a BB's OS is Java and its Multi-Tasking. Most apps are queued but its mult-tasking.
On 2007-12-10 01:22:24, max_wedge wrote:
3. Any crashing issues related to K850 are not JVM issues. The K850 doesn't use a JAVA Menu, java is for applications only. So crashing of K850 or menu slowness are other issues not related to the JVM. is the OS in A100/200 based on C++ code anyway?
On 2007-12-10 01:22:24, max_wedge wrote:
4. 3D apps are indeed better for Nokia which has had the benefit of N Gage development. Java will catch up.
And we all don't want 2D apps with Shading to mimic 3 dimensions, although those do look good lol .
On 2007-12-10 01:22:24, max_wedge wrote:
5. JP8 has not brought an increase in boot time. There is a misunderstanding floating around at the moment that the term JP8 refers to the menu and os of the phone. JP8 refers ONLY to the version of the JVM, not to the phone menu or os. The JVM itself runs as a separate hardware function and has no affect on menu or phone performance. It has it's own memory heap and even with 8 java apps running phone performance is not affected. I repeat K850 issues are NOT related to the JVM. They are more likely related to the new A200 OS version.
TOTALLY agree.
If anyone does NOT believe that a Java OS CAN look good. Ask me for screenshots of a Blackberry Pearl 8100. I believe I posted a few already months ago in the Official BlackBerry Thread. There is a REASON why BB's are the most successful corporate mobile handheld device. hint its NOT just the BB hardware itself.
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Supa_Fly
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On 2007-12-11 03:07:25, masseur wrote:
since this has been derailed I'm going to bring this back on track
This is NOT a discussion of which platform is best, which is more stable, which is more (whatever)... this is a discussion of "The Future of SE's Java Platform", which clearly there will be a future for, even if SE do eventually take windows mobile on board
more specifically this is about...
On 2007-12-08 09:23:06, razec wrote:
now my purpose for creating this thread is for us(J2ME lovers,users,fans) to expect/predict what would be SE's J2ME after JP-8 which currently supports MSA, Accelerometer API and Java binding for OpenGL(3D graphics, the reason why JP-8 phones now support QVGA+ resolution video rec. and better 3D Java games) yeah i'm talking about JP-9! if you ask me, i expect JP-9 to support CDC profile and MIDP 3 as well as many other APIs to be released from Sun's J2ME community how about you? share us some  J2ME lovers
so please now keep this discussion to just that
@Masseur, while I agree that this thread is NOT about which platform is best, we ALL cannot proceed with intelligent suggestions without comparing what other platforms offer. As essentially we all want functionality, viability of multimedia, and design to improve, not suffer. Thus we'll NEED to discuss what J2ME or CDC is lacking in currently that we will begin to see shortly or what we already enjoy as a community in other platforms - almost & borderline of what platforms is the best; just not quite. Please don't close this thread prematurely if it SEEMS like its a war of which platform is best. Mods will need to carefuly READ each post and see if substantial functions are stated and if SE fans replying wish to have this functionality.
Most importantly though ... I think we ALL need to take a good 30mins - 1hr over at SUN Microsystems site and determine what is offered as a mobile OS; what options & growth and what development coders are offering.
Cheers everyone.
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Dogmann
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@Prom1
Great posts and i agree with most of what you say and would happily concede that at this point in time the Blackberry Devices are head and shoulders above anything else when it comes to offering a full and manageable Corporate Solution it really is the Ultimate Buisness device. It really doesn't face any other product that gets close but it is only the best in that sector IMO.
I have already noted the newest Pearl is now 3G but am not so sure the Multimedia enhancements are the way to go, for Blackberry i really think master of one rather than jack of all. There is nothing wrong with improving screens, video playback and having a great browser or even a decent music player but i wouldn't try using these as major selling points.
Although Buisness and Buisness type devices benefit from increased Data speeds it's really not essential for many types of data. Where as for multimedia it is, this is the area where i see the biggest growth for Data. Buisness already knows and uses Data but now that multimedia is becoming viable especially with fixed price Data plans and WiFi and the speed and qaulity is there more people will start using it. We are talking about things like Mobile Networking so you are always in touch and able to interact with your friends, uploading pictures to Flickr or video to You Tube, updating Face Book, My space or your blog, all this will be seamless whether your at Home at Work or out and about.
A lot of people failed to grasp just how big an announcement OVI was at the time and have also failed to notice some of the largest Networks have now signed up with Nokia in providing enhanced services. After initially rejecting the concept of sharing their users as opposed to their users as opposed to directing them to their own services. Now there must be a reason for this as it may deprive of them of revenue, so unless they felt they stood to lose users for not being able to access these feature rich experiences i am pretty sure they wouldn't of done so.
I really do believe that it's the multimedia smart phone that is going to have massive growth and i really am not sure just how well suited Java is to this or not.
I really would like to here from those that know about Java what it is capable of and i don't mean multi tasking or how good the UI looks. Just what level of media can it support and are there currently powerful enough processors to support data intensive applications.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-13 01:59 ] |
Supa_Fly
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Java may be a little behind when it comes to multimedia. By this of course I mean what we're currently used to ...
1) 30fps @ QVGA resolution for Video Recording (minimum).
2) Stereo audio (42/44Khz) playback (especially over A2DP and in the background of other operations without skips, pauses, or drops in audio playback.
3) 30fps @ QVGA resolution for Video Playback.
Security (of the HIGHEST accord) just is part of the Java core OS so that an application going wild will not be able to do so. Cannot be installed WITHOUT user being prompted to do so ... well this is what I see with RIM's Java OS devices. Its NOT running on top of linux (like Moto's JUIX which is now dead.)
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masseur
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
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On 2007-12-13 01:49:02, Prom1 wrote:
@Masseur, while I agree that this thread is NOT about which platform is best, we ALL cannot proceed with intelligent suggestions without comparing what other platforms offer. As essentially we all want functionality, viability of multimedia, and design to improve, not suffer. Thus we'll NEED to discuss what J2ME or CDC is lacking in currently that we will begin to see shortly or what we already enjoy as a community in other platforms - almost & borderline of what platforms is the best; just not quite.
Agreed. My post was merely to get the thread back on track since some people seem intent lately to make every thread into Nokia vs SE or s60 vs everything else.
While my post described what the thread was NOT about, the points you raise are obviously a part of any discussion as we must compare with other choices, but not to the extent where the whole discussion does not move the main topic forward but instead becomes stagnant while the "which is best" is constantly being argued, as was the case here.
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[ This Message was edited by: masseur on 2007-12-13 06:33 ] |
max_wedge
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Thank you Massuer Quite agree.
Prom1, I believe the multitasking JVM is actual multitasking? I just now opened a web browser window with opera min, then minimised and started a file transfer operation using mini commander from one folder to another. Both tasks continued unabated as I task switch between them. The web pages continued to load, and when I went back to the task the webpage had finished loading. Then when I waited a little while and then switched back to mini commander, it had finished the file transfer (I made it a large transfer to ensure it would take longer than the time it took to switch tasks.
So, in effect two tasks continued to run simoultaneously, while task switching between tasks. I believe in your case, the netfront browser causes opera mini to pause because the phone itself is NOT a multi-task os, so when it needs the network hardware, it kills or pauses any java app using that hardware. A music or camera session are different story however they can run without pausing java since they run on separate processors (music on dsp, camera on the camera module microprocessor)
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Supa_Fly
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On 2007-12-13 08:42:22, max_wedge wrote:
Thank you Massuer Quite agree.
Prom1, I believe the multitasking JVM is actual multitasking? I just now opened a web browser window with opera min, then minimised and started a file transfer operation using mini commander from one folder to another. Both tasks continued unabated as I task switch between them. The web pages continued to load, and when I went back to the task the webpage had finished loading. Then when I waited a little while and then switched back to mini commander, it had finished the file transfer (I made it a large transfer to ensure it would take longer than the time it took to switch tasks.
So, in effect two tasks continued to run simoultaneously, while task switching between tasks. I believe in your case, the netfront browser causes opera mini to pause because the phone itself is NOT a multi-task os, so when it needs the network hardware, it kills or pauses any java app using that hardware. A music or camera session are different story however they can run without pausing java since they run on separate processors (music on dsp, camera on the camera module microprocessor)
PERFECT! Thanks for the clarification & for test as always my friend! So there IS hope & good faith placed in SE continuing with Java.
@Masseur, thank you for your kind words & wisdom. It was definately needed.
That said does anyone have any leads or information about the developer community striving for a Java OS? Any manufacturer big/small doing just this?
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Posted: 2007-12-12 03:14
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