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Nokia toppled as UK No1 by Sony Ericsson? |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@goldenface:
Quote:
| Sony Ericsson last year did exactly what it set out to do, go for growth in the mid-range, so it moved into Nokia's territory and completely outgunned Nokia's mid-range |
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How do come to this conclusion? In 2006 Nokia increased market share by 2.3% whereas SE increased by only 1.2%.  Maybe SE took market share from Samsung. The only segment which nokia reported didnt do well is the enterprise segment.
@max_wedge
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| forget about s60, no one cares about smart phones. For 2 years we've been arguing with you and Mib about smartphones being the big feature that everyone wants and that will keep Nokia in the dominant position, but in those two years the market has consistantly demonstrated no interest in smart phones at all.
I agree with MIB (begrudgingly) about multimedia, though I believe SE will catch up, just as they will in the smartphone bracket. And the only edge Nokia have in multimedia imho, is in video quality. In all other respects SE offer nicer, better quality and better spec'd phones. (leave s60 out of it, no one really cares about it except us tech heads)
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You really live in a cocoon. The smartphone market grew from 50mil in 2005 to 90mil in 2006. That's is several times general market growth rate. Nokia share of the total was 25mil in 2005 and 40mil in 2006. This year Nokia predicts it will sell 100mil smartphones.
Everyone is jumping into smartphone (even SE with rumor of 5 Symbian  ). Samsung launches i-series with S60 in addition to its list of WM. LG is coming up S60. Moto has quite a few WM and Linux phones on the way.
It doesnt matter whether the buyers know they are buying into a smartphone. But the fact they are buying them indicate that phone with a smart OS packs a much bigger punch (a.k.a more competitive)than one without.
If size/weight being the same, a 6290 or N76 (with S60) marketed as music phones will give the walkman a run for the money.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-01-26 11:14 ] | |
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goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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@mib1800
Nokia has admitted that its higher-end devices were not even competitive enough in various markets and had to rely on low-end devices in emerging markets to grab that market share - which in turn lowered it ASP.
However, SE has increased market share, profits and ASP - and not by selling cheap handsets but by churning out good mid-tier handsets.
Also, out of all the people that purchased smartphones last year - only a small percentage of those who purchased the phones actually required it to be a smartphone in the first place. The vast majority of people don't give a hoot about S60.
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[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-01-26 11:26 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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Mib Mib MIb  again you demonstrate how you live in a dream world by insisting that the fact that most Nokia handsets are s60, SOMEHOW means people buy it BECAUSE it has s60. They don't, infact, most Nokia owners DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT A SMARTPHONE IS, and wouldn't miss it if they didn't have it!!
They often DO NOT use the smartphone features. They only use the features on the phone that are available on SE's non-smartphones anyway. Don't mention multitasking, since SE phones now have excellent multi-tasking ability for a non-smartphone. Multiple JAVA apps, internet, camera and music all can run at once on current SE mid to high end phones (I'm not talking Symbian, but just the standard non-smartphone platform)
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@goldenface
Quote:
| Nokia has admitted that its higher-end devices were not even competitive enough in various markets and had to rely on low-end devices in emerging markets to grab that market share - which in turn lowered it ASP.
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I think Nokia was refering to some high-end devices (E-series??) and not the whole high-end segment (which you seem to imply). If you consider S60 phones as high-end, the volume went up from 28mil to 39mil which is a respectable 40% y-o-y growth. And the fact that N73 generate the biggest total profit attest to this. You are right tho that the Nokia 2006 market share gain (and profit gain) is attributed to emerging market.
But anyway most SE phones are in mid-tier so it is more likely SE fortune in 06 is the result of others (Samsung & LG) misfortune. The only 2 winners (in profit term) in 2006 are SE and Nokia.
@max_wedge
Quote:
| again you demonstrate how you live in a dream world by insisting that the fact that most Nokia handsets are s60, SOMEHOW means people buy it BECAUSE it has s60. |
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Where did I say this? Are you really reading my post or not?
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They don't, infact, most Nokia owners DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT A SMARTPHONE IS, and wouldn't miss it if they didn't have it!! |
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How do you know?? Even analyst cannot come to this conclusion and yet you are so unashamedly touting that YOU know this as a fact.
Let's say you r right (a big IF), the fact that s60 phones sales are growing FASTER than general trend indicates that s60 phones are still very desirable and competitive (which I have said in previous if you care to READ properly )
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-01-26 12:04 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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Quote:
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On 2007-01-26 12:55:05, mib1800 wrote:
How do you know?? Even analyst cannot come to this conclusion and yet you are so unashamedly touting that YOU know this as a fact.
Let's say you r right (a big IF), the fact that s60 phones sales are growing FASTER than general trend indicates that s60 phones are still very desirable and competitive (which I have said in previous if you care to READ properly )
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-01-26 12:04 ]
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mib, I know because most nokia user's I know, have no idea about smartphones. I've taught hundreds of Nokia owners what a smartphone is, and that they can install apps on their phone or multitask. They almost all think of a smartphone as a phone that can access the internet or collect email. This includes 99% of phones on the market.
Just because a phone has s60, doesn't mean that it was bought because it has s60. You are making an error in logic. (And yes I did read what you said, but I disagree. I'm not going to believe something just because you say it. You need to try harder than that. as I said you are making a basic error in logic). Infact, since most nokia buyers don't know it's a smartphone, how could the growth in smartphones be attributable to consumer demand? It's simply that Nokia are converting more and more of their range to s60. This is not because they think people want s60 smartphone features, but because they can offer better ergonomics on the s60 platform than the s40. Have you seen the s40 lately? It's shit, honestly. Nokia need to convert their whole range to s60, not for the smartphone aspect, but just for the improved ui (I don't mean multitasking or apps, I simply mean ergonomics and appearance). The SE non-smartphone UI is about ten times better than s40, so nokia have to use their smartphone interface, just to compete with SE in the non-smartphone segment.
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-01-26 13:12 ]
[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-01-26 13:14 ] |
pachy
Joined: Nov 05, 2002
Posts: > 500
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I think some people are looking into this too deeply,
Buyers have simply turned to SE because when a group of people get together the person with the SE phone more often than not has a phone that does something better, it might be the camera, the touch screen, the music/video capabillities, or th design, i had a P900 for 3 years, during that time, Nokia had nothing that came near it. obviously that short sightedness couldnt continue.
Reminder; milk, sugar, crisps, post letter. |
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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Exactly! Thanks Pachy
This is why SE's strategy is paying off.
Instead of making a phone that makes a half-baked attempt at everything they have made the music phones the best music phones and their camera-phones the best also.
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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Quote:
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On 2007-01-26 14:45:34, goldenface wrote:
Exactly! Thanks Pachy
This is why SE's strategy is paying off.
Instead of making a phone that makes a half-baked attempt at everything they have made the music phones the best music phones and their camera-phones the best also.
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Exactly, and the issue of whether they are smartphones or not is completely irrelevant...
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MUKMEN
Joined: Sep 03, 2005
Posts: 10
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In Indonesia SE number 2, but on 3 - 4 next year , I guess SE will get number 1, as I knewn in many phone store centre in my country ,SE sold 8 from 10 Nokia phone, the Price was the power of SE phöne , look at the K510, K750, K790 , many people can get the quality phone with the best price , wauw ! Amazing !
This message was posted from a K790i |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@max_wedge:
Now you are making a more compelling argument. Even if most who bought s60 dont install additional software (or multi-task), the fact remains that combination of s60 OS and Nokia's superior hardware makes these phones pack a greater punch. This include better web browser, email, PIM, video rec, multimedia and office doc format support.
In 2006 Nokia did not do well in music segment because its music oriented offering like the N91 is too expensive & heavy. The only other phone is 3250 which did sell quite well but cannot hold the fort when up against the many walkman models.
Like I say this has changed as Nokia has come out with 6290/N76/n75 which is small or thin and pack a whole range of functions that SE walkman dont have - like function to read out sms, built-in 3.5mm jack, mini-usb connector and of the sweet trappings of all the pre-installed smartphone apps. And at the lower price range the 5300 music phone has done very well indeed selling 2mil in the short time it was released. And dont forget there are the N70/73/91ME.
It was a walk in the park for SE in 2006 in the music segment because SE walkman was up against feeble phones. But let's just see how well SE can do in 2007 when full-featured music-oriented offerings (like the n76/6290) from other makers come on stream.
Quote:
| The SE non-smartphone UI is about ten times better than s40, |
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I think this statement is pure SE fanboy exaggeration. |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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Quote:
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On 2007-01-26 15:08:53, mib1800 wrote:
I think this statement is pure SE fanboy exaggeration.
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haha, You would think that!  No I'm not a SE fanboy, just know what I like, and s40 sucks. I detest it, and find the SE UI far more user friendly and flexible. There is no effort at multi-tasking for example. SE non-smartphone UI is ahead of Nokia non-smartphone UI imho. Again this is something I notice many people comment on.
One example, recently my bro-in-law went from K750 to a Nokia 5140, and he commented on the poor display and poor ergonomics of the UI. This phone also has no bluetooth, poor display, no cable included (and Nokia unlike SE, have multitudes of different data cables, changes almost model to model, so you get penalised for buying a cable for your phone when you upgrade - you have to buy a new cable), no memory to speak of, no mp3player (no memory), and JAVA support is atrocious, yet pricewise it is pitched against SE phones with expandable memory (or adequate onboard), bluetooth, mp3players etc.
Now I know it's only an example, and it does have some features (compass, thermometer etc) not available on SE phones, but the features are pretty gimmicky imho. There is no reason Nokia couldn't have put atleast 176x176 screen and bluetooth in this phone.
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@max_wedge
Quote:
| I detest it, and find the SE UI far more user friendly and flexible. There is no effort at multi-tasking for example. SE non-smartphone UI is ahead of Nokia non-smartphone UI imho. Again this is something I notice many people comment on. |
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The latest s40 in 5300 allows mp3 to be played in background. As to multi-tasking, yes you r right, it is still not at the level of SE UI. Then again SE UI dont have very useful active standby screen. And not to mention SE UI is SLOW compared to S40. On the whole, s40 still is behind SE UI but not 10 times worse as u said.
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| no cable included (and Nokia unlike SE, have multitudes of different data cables, changes almost model to model, |
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I think this is incorrect. Most phones are compatible with the CA-52/53 data cable. All s60 phones have data cable included and so does phones that have a memory card slot.
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| Now I know it's only an example, and it does have some features (compass, thermometer etc) not available on SE phones, but the features are pretty gimmicky imho. There is no reason Nokia couldn't have put atleast 176x176 screen and bluetooth in this phone. |
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Do you realise 5140 is a SPORT's model? Those functions are not gimmicky. Why r u comparing an old (niche) model with SE top end K750? How about using recent models? Why does a 6233 which has much more functionality than a W850 and cost at least 40% cheaper? How you want to rebut this? So does this mean that SE is screwing its customers big time??
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bart
Joined: Feb 03, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Flanders
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SE wil launch 5 symbian phones.
keep in mind that the phones for japan are also counted as sybmian. they run on the FOMA platform, just have a look at the symbian website. |
Xugaa
Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Great Britain
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It makes sense really, most people I know and have seen with phones have Sony Ericssons.
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bart
Joined: Feb 03, 2002
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From: Flanders
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for belgium nokia 1, samsung 2, sony ericsson 3
With Ericsson and Nokia gone: we must keep their spirits alive and buy JOLLA or YOTA | |
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Posted: 2007-01-26 10:54
