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The Danish Mohammad cartoon row - what do you think? |
axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Londinium
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On 2006-02-11 09:42:29, absinthebri wrote:
Well, what is free speech if not *precisely* that?
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How many times are you going to repeat youself?
So why dont you tell me...so your basically saying under the banner of free speech i am allowed to say what i want..correct? ...you better think about it long and hard if i were you!
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absinthebri
Joined: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 476
From: London, UK
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On 2006-02-11 09:46:24, axxxr wrote:
How many times are you going to repeat youself?
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Until you get it. You seem to have now.
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So why dont you tell me...so your basically saying under the banner of free speech i am allowed to say what i want..correct? ...you better think about it long and hard if i were you!
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That's correct. And I've spent over 25 years thinking about it.
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goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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Of course you can say what you want. But free speech also assumes you have some sort of brain in your head that stops you from spouting words that might cause pain or incite murder or hatred.
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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On 2006-02-11 09:52:28, absinthebri wrote:
Until you get it. You seem to have now.
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Trust me i know what im talking about but i dont think you do though!
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On 2006-02-11 09:52:28, absinthebri wrote:
That's correct. And I've spent over 25 years thinking about it.
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So if i came upto you and insulted your mum and family and made drawings of them depicting them in a bad way you would be ok with that would you?...because according to you i am allowed to to do that under your banner of unlimited free speech am i not?
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absinthebri
Joined: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 476
From: London, UK
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On 2006-02-11 09:55:28, goldenface wrote:
Of course you can say what you want. But free speech also assumes you have some sort of brain in your head that stops you from spouting words that might cause pain or incite murder or hatred.
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What may cause pain is *entirely* subjective.
I agree, one cannot incite murder or hatred; other people have rights, too. Which part of the cartoons do you think incited anything?
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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On 2006-02-11 09:55:28, goldenface wrote:
Of course you can say what you want. But free speech also assumes you have some sort of brain in your head that stops you from spouting words that might cause pain or incite murder or hatred.
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Thankyou goldenface!
Absinthbri prefers unlimited freedom of speech with no boundrys of decency or respect for anyone or anything!
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absinthebri
Joined: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 476
From: London, UK
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On 2006-02-11 09:57:00, axxxr wrote:
So if i came upto you and insulted your mum and family and made drawings of them depicting them in a bad way you would be ok with that would you?...because according to you i am allowed to to do that under your banner of unlimited free speech am i not?
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Of course it's okay! I'm a grown-up.
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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On 2006-02-11 10:00:59, absinthebri wrote:
Of course it's okay! I'm a grown-up.
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Well your proberbly from a very small minority of people who would find that acceptable...because i think the vast majority would find that unacceptable...but i do hope your understand where im coming from?
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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On 2006-02-11 09:38:57, axxxr wrote:
Yes i have generalised about americans and i have over exagerated my views about them but i would'nt say i was misleading..its a matter of opinon...still dont see what this has got to do with attacks on religion?
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I seem to recall a thread regarding an American war plan to invade Canada; your treatment of the issue was misleading.
What this has to do with the matter at hand is quite simple; in reacting to what you alledge are attacks on Islam you accuse others of the very things you yourself have done in criticising the West. You have presented your case as being, in effect, a case of Western bias and anti-Islamic feeling. However, you have yet to show how that is the case as all you seem to have done is repeat rhetoric concerning the West with little actual attempt at understanding the situation from any vantage point other than the one you you prefer to occupy.
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I am insulting thing on their polictical stand pointment and foreign policy,me refering to americans is a generalisation about their government and by no means has any intention of attacking the people..you will find even my american esato friends agree with me so i dont know where your coming from?..I have a lot of american friends in london and america who campaign against the current regime thats running the U.S..some of them have even seen my anti-american threads on esato,and we all laughed and joked about it!...so please you dont have grounds for this argument.,
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This is interesting because it appears that you are attempting to say that your generalisations are ok because some Americans agree with you. In essence you are using them as justification for your views. Of course we both know that not all Americans find your threads to be funny and the very term you yourself use 'anti-American' says a lot for the intent of such threads I believe.
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Yes i agree with that no one is saying it is acceptable...but yet some here are saying under the banner of free speech we are entitled to say whatever we wish...My opinion is that blasphemy or to insult any religion is wrong not just Islam..I agree that free and open debate should be allowed to question faiths but but drawing cartoons and hurting the feelings of followers of that faith doesnt get one anywhere...we live in a world with enough problems..nobody needs this!
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As has been said before, freedom of speech is not just about saying nice things, it also has the capacity to offend. That doesn't mean to say that one should seek to offend, but what if, to make a legitimate point, one has to say something that some will find offensive? Are we to stay silent for fear of offending someone when something needs to be said?
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[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-02-11 09:06 ] |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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On 2006-02-11 09:57:00, axxxr wrote:
So if i came upto you and insulted your mum and family and made drawings of them depicting them in a bad way you would be ok with that would you?...because according to you i am allowed to to do that under your banner of unlimited free speech am i not?
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I have to agree with absin here, I can't say I would be particularly bothered either. I would realise that they are just words and drawings; they have no capacity to hurt or cause pain beyond what I myself give them. I would give them none.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
absinthebri
Joined: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 476
From: London, UK
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On 2006-02-11 10:04:13, axxxr wrote:
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On 2006-02-11 10:00:59, absinthebri wrote:
Of course it's okay! I'm a grown-up.
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Well your proberbly from a very small minority of people who would find that acceptable...because i think the vast majority would find that unacceptable...but i do hope your understand where im coming from?
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I understand where you're coming from. I accept you have a right to approach the subject the way you do.
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I only wish others would accept my right, too.
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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On 2006-02-11 10:09:30, scotsboyuk wrote:
I have to agree with absin here, I can't say I would be particularly bothered either. I would realise that they are just words and drawings; they have no capacity to hurt or cause pain beyond what I myself give them. I would give them none.
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That makes two of you.....i must be from another planet then! 
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goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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@ absinthebri. I completely understand why the depiction of the prophet, and in that particular manner, caused offence and I agree with what your saying completely. Someones religion and the way they practice it is highly personal. I am not conviced that actions of the Danish editor were intentional, however I believe it was still their right to investigate this particular taboo.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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On 2006-02-11 10:21:21, axxxr wrote:
That makes two of you.....i must be from another planet then!
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I think we can take this situation down to one of offence and ask the question; do we have the right to say (say, draw, etc) something, which is offensive to someone else?
I believe that we do have that right. That is not to say that a right to be offensive means we should try our best to offend others, but that if making a legitimate points requires someone to say something offensive then that person has to be able to do so. People have a right to disagree with what he says, but that disagreement shouldn't involve violence.
How often have we gone to see a comedian who makes a valid point about religion, but does so through what some might consider offensive language? Personally I am rather fond of Billy Conolly; he has made points, through humour, about the Church of Scotland and done so through bad language and even an anecdote involving prostitutes. Some might find that offensive, but at the same time he made those comments as part of making a legitimate point about the role the Church of Scotland plays in society.
Similarly one could point to art or theatre or literature to see examples of how a legitimate point is sometimes made through someone pushing the boundaries and saying or creating something, which shocks or offends some people.
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[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-02-11 09:37 ] |
axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Londinium
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[quote]
On 2006-02-11 10:04:18, scotsboyuk wrote:
I seem to recall a thread regarding an American war plan to invade Canada; your treatment of the issue was misleading.
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Not you maybe...to me it was just exageration of the original story,i provided a link to the originial article anyway so people could judge for themselves as you did!
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On 2006-02-11 10:04:18, scotsboyuk wrote:
What this has to do with the matter at hand is quite simple; in reacting to what you alledge are attacks on Islam you accuse others of the very things you yourself have done in criticising the West.
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Don't think i do...they have hurt the feelings of 1.6 billion muslims on the planet a few have objected in a harsh way,but thats to be expected.
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On 2006-02-11 10:04:18, scotsboyuk wrote:
You have presented your case as being, in effect, a case of Western bias and anti-Islamic feeling.
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Thats a fact anyway...muslims have been experiencing islamphobia racial attacks based on their faith and medias portrayal of muslims as being terrorists for years now,how much do you expect them to take?..its no secret that the west does have a problem with islam.only very few a honetst enough to show their feelings,most like to pretend to show their approval...the cartoons depicted the real sentiments people have towards islam..which is negative.
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On 2006-02-11 10:04:18, scotsboyuk wrote:
However, you have yet to show how that is the case as all you seem to have done is repeat rhetoric concerning the West with little actual attempt at understanding the situation from any vantage point other than the one you you prefer to occupy.
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I think that goes both ways,dont you think?
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On 2006-02-11 10:04:18, scotsboyuk wrote:
This is interesting because it appears that you are attempting to say that your generalisations are ok because some Americans agree with you. In essence you are using them as justification for your views. Of course we both know that not all Americans find your threads to be funny and the very term you yourself use 'anti-American' says a lot for the intent of such threads I believe.
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Of course my generlisations are ok..i am absolutely stand by everything i say about americans...my views towards acceptable and i dont say how it is not acceptable??...why i cant make a strong political statement against them is beyond me?..
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On 2006-02-11 10:04:18, scotsboyuk wrote:
As has been said before, freedom of speech is not just about saying nice things, it also has the capacity to offend. That doesn't mean to say that one should seek to offend, but what if, to make a legitimate point, one has to say something that some will find offensive? Are we to stay silent for fear of offending someone when something needs to be said?
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Absolutely i would agree with that freedom of speech should mean to open about making and accepting comments and opinons..but as i said before LIMITS to expression is important here...just as we have limits as to what we can post or say on esato...nothing is unlimited as i said,specially free speech!
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Posted: 2006-02-11 09:46
