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Cell phone Use on Airplanes |
Bhaal
Joined: Jul 18, 2002
Posts: 61
From:
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Sorry, this got long...
We all know that Mobiles (especially the Time Division radio type, ie. GSM) creates lots of interference in radio, tv, normal phones and of course PC-screens (CRTs not LCDs).
When flying small planes at least, the interference on the radio from a GSM phone is very annoying.
That said, the phones work well at least a few km. above ground. Even though the ground antennas ARE directionall, they still emit enough upwards (its very hard to make antennas very directional).
Usually GSM phones are said to stop working at about 250km/h (~160mph). This is simply because the GSM network is not designed to hand over the phone fast enough to the next cell.
This would be even slower in urban areas, where higher number of mobiles mean the operators make smaller cells (the number of cell phones which can be serviced at a time is per cell - more cells means more phones).
This would be the reason why someone experienced the cell phones working just before takeof and landing. The initial climb speed of large airplanes are in the 160mph ballpark, as are the approach speed.
This is probably also why forgotten phones in overhead lockers start beeping just around landing time. They simply just cought on to the network, and SMS's which has been hold up during flight, arrives (If it really rings, coincidence will have to account for some of it 
Whether a GSM phone can seriously affect the navigational equipment (assuming you dont put it next to the compass master), is probably an open question - but as has been said before - why risk it?
Clearly it "shouldn't", but that is not the same as "can't possibly"!
GSM phones are very trouble-some noise emitters, and they have exemptions (spell?) from the normal EMC requirements which are used for all electronic equipment. I a electronics designer, and it is VERY VERY hard to design equipment that is TRULY immune to GSM-phones noise. Even if you completely shield the component, just a small gap will let in quite a lot of radio energy.
Add to this that often airliners are quite old. GSM phones didn't become widespread until about 7 years ago, so maybe the planes electronics predates them (and as GSM phones has exemptions from the normal noise emittion requirements, you can hardly expect older equipment to have foreseen that kind of noise).
The age of airliners are seldom a safety concern, as every mechanical part is constantly inspected, testet, and replaced on schedule (as Fingers can surely confirm), but I'm not sure this goes for the electronics, as long as it passes validation tests, I think some of it can be quite old.
Anyway, the upshot is simple. Why do it?
And for the extremely egoistic, who doesn't understand that argument: It surely won't work at cruise speeds anyway!
On the ground is slightly different. But as the pilots are already testing equipment, and talking with the ground controllers before engine start-up, you could argue that they should be off here too. It's just not a safety argument here. But imagine that they get a failure on one of the instrument power-up tests - they might decide to send the plane of to service, and you'd have to catch the next. Damn expensive for them - and a huge bother for you. Now thats an argument for everyone.
Either way - the stewerdess could still be polite when telling you so!
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decoy7
Joined: Feb 06, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: NW London
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Quote:
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On 2002-07-28 01:45, Froddan wrote:
Which part of this, is it that you don't understand?
DO NOT USE YOUR CELL PHONE IN AN AIRCRAFT !!!!!
I'm in this line of job too, I don't pretend to know all about the topic, but I know for a fact that it can cause failure in the electronics of the aircraft.
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Froddan,
have you read the posts?
British Airways policy is that mobile phones can be used on board planes before engines are turned on.
this means when boarding a plane you are fine to use your phone up until you've sat down and been advised to switch it off...which doesn't happen until the captain is about to turn on the engines.
Germany however(and as cycoman ponted out Turkey also) prohibits all German airlines from having mobile
equipment on at any time while aboard the aircraft.
this means you have to switch off your phone before you board the plane.
this rule does not affect non German airlines when in Germany but it does confuse matters when it's not clearly stated what rule is in effect.
peole say, why do you need your phone on when your boarding a plane?
you dont, same as you dont need it on when your on the tube, train or bus...but when the rules state it can be on then it will be and if you travel on British Airways regularly like i did then obviously you leave your phone on til your required to switch it off.
if you dont understand what i'm saying let me know as your comment shows you havent read all the posts on this subject.
no one disputed they should have phones on during flights, the dispute is in how the rules ARE different for different countries but are not clearly stated as such.
its a little late advertising use of mobiles in the booklet in the seat n front of you, your already on the plane.
for more info:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question230.htm
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Froddan
Joined: Jan 18, 2002
Posts: > 500
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Decoy7
I agree, the laws and rules concerning this should be clearly stated, and world wide. One and same for all.
I've read all posts here, what I meant was, I don't know what (phones, laptops, cd players) it is that effects the electronics in an aircraft, and why it effects them.
But I do know that it has a negative effect on the electronics in an aircraft.
Just to be on the safe side, why not turn off the phone before boarding, no matter whether it's BA or Lufthansa.
A little like on a construction area, with blasting operations in progress, it's better to be safe than sorry.
And you can't compare a train to an aircraft. The technology and electronics used in an aircraft is far more advanced, and therefor also more vurnelable to "disturbing sources".
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Fingers
Joined: Jan 29, 2002
Posts: 468
From: New Zealand
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I'm not even going to repeat everything I've written previously in this post except that it is international law that you are not allowed to have your cell phone on during what they call the flight phase, which means as soon as the engines are started, it's up to the airline if they allow you to have your phone on before and after that. Everybody knows you're not allowed to have you phone on in an aircraft, so why even bother. It does cause interference with a lot of the aircraft systems, not just communication and navigation systems. |
Froddan
Joined: Jan 18, 2002
Posts: > 500
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Fingers
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Now, lets leave it to this. |
riflogic
Joined: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: London,UK
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I looked into the law concerning the use of GSM phones on airlines. It is simple and straight forward that it is illegal to use mobile phones in aircrafts. Just have a look at you phone manuals; and as Fingers said why even bother. Just follow the law. No point in trying to use the phone on the aeroplane. Just switch it off before you board the plane and have a pleasent and a peaceful journey Also, I heard the use of GSM mobile phones in cars interfere with the breaking system to some extent. Is this true???
[ This Message was edited by: riflogic on 2002-07-28 17:59 ] |
Froddan
Joined: Jan 18, 2002
Posts: > 500
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I'm not sure about the brakes, might have a possible interference issue with older ABS though.
Also there was some problems with airbags, but that's been solved now. |
decoy7
Joined: Feb 06, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: NW London
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refer to my posts on Page 2 of this to understand the point being made.
no one suggested mobiles should be used during flights, myself along with cykoman suggested the rules are not clearly visible for passengers to understand where they stand as well as differing from airline to airline.
now before you post more comments go back and read and try to understand whats been written please.
Bjerkebanen, i just cant understand what your saying mate.
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decoy7
Joined: Feb 06, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: NW London
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for your perusal:
http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publications/Incidents/DOCS/Research/Rvs/Article/EMI.html
http://www.mach.com/www/connection/c09_a3.htm
"German Government Bans Mobile Phones on Planes"
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Fingers
Joined: Jan 29, 2002
Posts: 468
From: New Zealand
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Yeah I've heard that older abs systems on cars could've been affected by gsm mobiles.
It's usually quite clearly marked on the safety card that you can't use you phone on the plane, and you're supposed to read that aren't you  and any airline I've ever flown on always mentions it over the PA, but not everybody always pays attention to it, you could be talking to someone and miss it, but they usually say it when they're doing the safety demo. |
MrHat
Joined: Jun 09, 2002
Posts: 41
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Bit off topic but about using mobiles on trains:
I read an article not long ago about how the construction and materials used in most train cars refelect a large amount of the radio signals back into the train from the mobile.
Experts even belived that with just a normal train with an average number of passengers having their phones on standby can double or even triple the safty level. So imagine a crowded train where 5-10 people are using their phones.
I think it even mentioned that certain Japanese trains & tubes requested that mobiles be turned off while onboard (altho not many ppl are listening). |
paavolam
Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 36
From: Finland
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Take you cell phone near monitor or speaker what happens?
Okay those devices are not protected, but...
Anyway if there is a risk why take it? Secondly do you really want to hear other people conversations during the fligh. Cell Phones are good devices, but we do not need them everythere. |
decoy7
Joined: Feb 06, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: NW London
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Quote:
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On 2002-07-29 08:29, Fingers wrote:
It's usually quite clearly marked on the safety card that you can't use you phone on the plane, and you're supposed to read that aren't you :D and any airline I've ever flown on always mentions it over the PA, but not everybody always pays attention to it, you could be talking to someone and miss it, but they usually say it when they're doing the safety demo.
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still not reading the posts?
if mobile phones are not to be used on board aircraft period, it's very unintelligent to put a notice regarding this on the safety card on board the aircraft as many airlines do...what they should do is have notices before you board or print it on the boarding card as i've said before had you read.
for most holiday travellers getting on a plane is a rare occasion, for business travellers it can be every week and thats where the inadequate sign posts detailing what the rules are become apparent.
this was the point being made, if you read the posts you'd have understood.
[ This Message was edited by: decoy7 on 2002-07-29 14:31 ] |
Fingers
Joined: Jan 29, 2002
Posts: 468
From: New Zealand
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I don't see what you're getting at, any airline I've ever flown (or worked for) always tells you before boarding and during the safety briefing, most airlines use generic tickets so it's not always on there. But I have seen boarding passes with it written on. and if you listen and read the available information you should see that you can't use them, all the airlines have to do is make the information available they're not responsible for people that ignore it, they've done their bit. Anyway I just keep them flying I don't write the rules |
decoy7
Joined: Feb 06, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: NW London
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i give up...you guys cant read.
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Posted: 2002-07-28 14:03
