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Topscooby traded me a phone which has become blocked. |
Berry
Joined: Dec 09, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: UK
PM, WWW
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I know this is nothing to do with car, but surely the principles are the same?
Here
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T68iKING
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: W.London
PM |
Mike.P deserves his full money back (or value of trade) - simple as, no excuses.
The only fair/generous stance for Topscooby is to allow him a week from today to solve the matter with the "ebay seller". As this is meant to be a friendly forum and everyone takes trust for granted, this is the only sympathetic approach towards Topscooby, that i see anyway.
Its true what Mike.P is saying in how would we react; i know i wouldnt take this lightly, or allow so much time to pass (though you did state you boxed the phone for a while) without resolving the situation one way or another, especially when a £200+ headset is involved.
Hope this gets settled peacefully and quickly, and doesnt put off Mike.P from dealing on these forums again, or deter other new members from using Esato 
[addsig] |
solidsingh
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: india
PM |
Quote:
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On 2007-02-16 13:18:08, Mamber wrote:
@solidsingh
Are you saying the provider can do this then, if the contract has not come to an end as I stated earlier?? We know this happens a lot, as they are the original owner.
@masseur
Yes you are correct it is WAY of topic, I will start another thread in the 'General' thread as I have another good debate about who owns a phone.
Sorry Mike, but good luck with your quest.
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the provider can block the phone if you stop paying the bill yes, but i was talking about PAYG phones.
@t68i king
yes mike p does deserve a refund but under the eyes of the law, hes not entitled to a penny which is really stupid but thats just the way it is im afraid
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Topscooby
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 414
From: The 'Sunny' South Coast, UK
PM |
As Mike has decided to open a thread about this phone in an open forum, for you all to read and comment on, i feel it only fair to post my side of the story.
I have been traded a blocked phone....my response!
As Mike outlined at the very beginning of this thread i entered into a trade with him which consisted of me selling a W810i and the Nokia 8800 to him in exchange for a W950i plus cash.
I originally purchased the 8800 via a BIN auction on ebay which was offered by a powerseller. The phone was described as brand new boxed and unmarked. This was at the beginning of november last year. When the phone arrived it had a couple of small scratches on the front case. I contacted the seller to ask for an explaination regarding the scratches on a phone he described as both brand new and unmarked. His reply, in a nutshell, was tough luck if you don't like it sell it to somebody else! I immediately contacted ebay and opened a dispute with them (via Paypal) about the condition i had received the phone in. In the end they found the case in the sellers favour as no proof existed as to whether or not the damage existed before i received it...wonderfull!
As i had planned to give the phone to my wife as a Christmas present i decided to sell it instead as i did'nt want to give it to her in that condition.
I advertised the phone for sale on this forum including in the description that it was marked. When Mike and i agreed our sale/trade i sent him the phone as well as the W810i. On receiving the phone Mike found a dent on the rear of the case that i had'nt even noticed myself. However, we were able to come to an amicable solution to resolve this problem. This was before Christmas last year.
When i sent Mike the phone it was in perfect working order and i had personally used it on three different networks (Orange, O2 and Voda).
Other than the additional damage that Mike found with the phone there was no mention of any other problem with the phone. And this is how it remained until earlier this week when i received a pm from Mike to say the phone had been barred as he could not use any of his sims in it.
I replyed to Mikes pm saying i was sorry to hear about the phone being barred and that i would do everything i could to resolve the situation. This included me trying to contact the person who had sold me the phone to try and find out why it was now barred. To this day all my messages and emails to him have been ignored! I also posted a thread on this forum asking if there was any other reason why a phone would suddenly become blocked other than it being reported as lost/stolen. It soon became clear that this was indeed the most obvious reason for it being blocked.
I sent Mike another pm to explain that as the phone was now more than likely subject to criminal activity that it would have to be reported to the police. It was at this stage that Mike explained that he had been in this situation before and suggested that i refund him his money and then to contact the person who sold me the phone on ebay to inform them that i would report them to the police for making a false insurance claim. He also added that he then normally accepted a 50% refund from the ebay seller and then made the rest of the money up by breaking the phone down and selling it for parts.
This did not seem a reasonable course of action for me to take as i had no proof that the person who sold me the phone was guilty of anything and that it could be the person who sold him the phone that could be responsible. It was at this stage that i sought legal advice.
It was as a result of this advice that i again pm'd Mike to confirm that it was nessasary to contact the police and make a complaint as this obviously needed to be investigated via the propper channels and by the correct authorities (i.e. the police). There was no way that i was going to try and agree any form of arrangement with the seller of the phone to me until it was established just who had committed a crime. I tried to reitterate with Mike, again by pm, that this was now a matter for the police to deal with and not either of us. I also explained that if the phone had indeed been repoted as either lost/stolen and a payment had been made by an insurance company then the rightful owner of the phone was now the insurance company and not Mike. This being the case we would both have been breaking the law if we had tried to dispose of the phone to anyone other than the police as they would need it as evidence to bring a prosecution.
It was at this stage that i assured Mike that i would be only too willing to give a full statement to the police on how, when, where and who i purchased the phone from including paper printouts from both ebay and Paypal. I acknowledged that it was him who was 'out of pocket' at this stage but that it was essential that we let the police handle the matter. I also assured Mike that if, as a result of any conviction of the person reponsible for the fraud, that i received any money back then i would, of course, refund him all his money.
Unfortunately Mike does not seem keen on using the correct method of seeing that the actual villain is caught and punished and is only concerned with me giving him his money back and thats all. He stated in one of his pm's to me that "it was'nt his problem" and that as he bought the phone from me he considered it my duty to make good over what someone else had done.
As i said to Mike, i will not accept either responsibillity or accountability for someone elses criminal actions. It is up to the police, the crown prosecution service and the courts to determine the outcome of this crime and not us. After all, that is what they are paid to do by us from our taxes...like it or not.
The whole problem of phones being sold and then blocked at a later date is getting out of hand and it is up to us to ensure that all criminal activity is reported to the police for the correct investigation. All the time we try and sideshift the problem to someone else or to make deals with the crooks then it will forever be OUR problem and the villians will laugh at US as they go and spend OUR hard earned cash!
I have told Mike he has my full support and cooperation regarding this matter but only if we approach it the correct way. And that correct way is called 'due process'. It is not the fastest process, but it is the correct one.
What really worries me is Mikes suggestion that he has considered getting the W950i i traded with him blocked! Is'nt this the exact problem that he has started this thread over? Would'nt it be ironic if the person who has got the 8800 blocked has done so because of a deal that did not go all their way???
I find it unbelieavable that a trusted trader on here could even consider such an action. How could anyone in the future trade with someone who has shown that they are willing to get phones blocked and, therefore, break the law themselves to the cost of innocent forum members!!!
Even after all this i will support Mike if he chooses to go to the police and still offer my help with a full statement of all the details...as it is the right thing to do.
I appologise for writing such a long reply and using up so much bandwidth!
I do not, however, appologise for wanting to take the correct route in seeing the criminal(s) behind all this bought to justice.
I thank you all for your time.
Topscooby.
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lamont
Joined: Mar 27, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Manchester, UK
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HI,
i know this is not a good way to solve the problem but i think the phone will only be barred in the UK and you will be able to sell it on a european/ USA ebay site and get good money for it.
I know this not a good solution but i thought i would let you know.
[ img ] http://a-zott.com/images/A-ZoTT%20Userbar%20Gold.gif [ /img ]
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Mike.P®
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: > 500
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Well I think I got to about the second line before giving up.
As for the W950i getting blocked I contacted PeterKay to say that I would not do that straight after he posted on here that he was the new owner.
But at the end of all your waffle basically I have a unusable 8800 and you have the funds from my W950i.
That really seems like a good deal to me.
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T68iKING
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: W.London
PM |
I still think you should compensate Mike back; seems like your trying to avoid any costs on yourself - we all know the police or courts arent going to convict or compensate anyone back.
Do the right thing Topscooby, and give him his money back (you can both agree a figure if you prefer?), and track down the ebay seller yourself (you must have his details - home) or take lamont advice and sell on the 8800 outside the UK (should get at least £150), that way you wont be stung (totally anyway) by the deal.
I dont feel its right for mike having to take any burden of the barring of the phone, as he bought it off you on esato - no safety or security in place (just trust). However, you had ebay and paypal to help you, if they cant help, maybe implies you shouldn't use they serivces again. Though as a esato member, you have the choice/power to simply refund him, and try again at chasing the original seller.
P.S: in case your wondering, i dont know Mike at all - havent even done a deal with him either  and therefore wanted to illustrate it wasnt fair that you had your 'mates' put their bias view in the thread (though as its a free world....)
Good luck anyway to the both of you.
[addsig] |
koolezt
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 136
PM |
Maybe, a view from a disinterested 3rd. party might help. I'll try to take it step by step.
At the bottom of this, there's apparently a guilty party defrauding insurance or selling-on an unpaid-for contract phone or a careless victim misquoting an imei.
Topscooby is either that person or an accomplice or an innocent middleman.
Mike is the loser at the end of the chain and Topscooby is unwilling to carry the can, but says he is willing and able to co-operate in tracing the chain.
Those are the facts we know. (By the way, I'd guess most theft victims don't know their imei exists, far less the actual #. I've had a stolen phone blocked by identifying myself with contract details and phone #.)
Now for two conclusions and a question that should suggest a solution. First, Mike is out of pocket and all he has is an expensive papeweight. Second, the facts can only be found by official investigation, Mike can't do it on his own, and Topscooby's co-operation would make the job easier.
The question is: Starting from the present situation, what does Mike have to lose by putting the matter in the hands of the police, with Topscooby's promise of co-operation?
better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. |
joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
PM |
Just wondering, can Topscooby prove the paypal dispute with the ebay seller?
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TruffleHunterSnortBeast
Joined: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 262
From: Nuneaton
PM |
For what it's worth, here is my two penny worth.
Last year I traded a phone with zootzoot, which I bought off of a supposed mate. I tested it, and was well, so I advertised it, and struck a deal with zootzoot. Upon receiving the phone, which only took a couple of days, zootzoot informed me that the phone was blocked. So I felt it was my moral obligation to give zootzoot a full refund. He didnot have to ask, and to his credit, he was very civil about it. I refunded him and asked that he destroy the phone, as I did not want anything to do with dodgy dealings.
The onus was on me to retrieve my original outlay, which I did. It took me a while to catch up with the original seller, and me , not being the most tactful or tolerant of people, ranted and raved and demanded my money back. He said that he had nothing to give me, and if he had, he wouldn't hand it over. I saw red and gained some satisfaction, if you catch my drift. This is not the way to do things, and I cannot condone it, but it made me feel better. I am out of pocket, and still slightly peeved, but I now consider the subject closed.
Topscooby, give Mike a refund, and let's keep this forum a friendly place. You can start to recoup your outlay. Please do not go about it the same way as me as you could land yourself in serious trouble, but involve the proper authorities, whether it be the police, Ebay, Paypal or all three.
Well, that's my sayso. Sorry, if it goes on a bit. |
Mike.P®
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: > 500
PM |
Quote:
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On 2007-02-16 18:38:36, koolezt wrote:
The question is: Starting from the present situation, what does Mike have to lose by putting the matter in the hands of the police, with Topscooby's promise of co-operation?
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How about the expensive paper weight if they decide to return it to the insurance company?
That would just be the icing on the cake wouldn't it.
I would then have nothing . the original seller would have the money from Topscooby and Topscooby would have the proceeds from MY W950i.
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dougproctor
Joined: Jan 07, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Gosport, UK
PM |
Mike. Your phone will eventually, no doubt, end up with the insurance company. And by the time the police etc have got their finger out and caught the criminal, it will be worth nothing anyway.
I was sold a phone on here by a well known member. It was blocked about two weeks later. I rang the member and within 20 minutes, the money was back in my bank account by bank transfer.
No hassle, no questions, just an apology for the trouble. Why should you have to bear the brunt of the enquiry for a not inconsiderable amount of money?
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solidsingh
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: india
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Quote:
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On 2007-02-16 18:45:50, joebmc wrote:
Just wondering, can Topscooby prove the paypal dispute with the ebay seller?
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im also interested in this because when i had a similar problem, i sold a phone and the buyer complained that it had more scratches than i described, he won ha nds down and got his money back
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captainsm
Joined: Jun 25, 2002
Posts: > 500
PM |
I've had a few complaints registred with Ebay myself and my experience is that the buyer almost always get's out on the winning side.
Shipped a P990 to israel for 900 bucks when they were brand new. The buyer claimed it never got there and got his money back from my Paypal account. 
I even provided info from the israeli post office that it was delivered, but still nothing.
Seems strange that scooby can't get the money back. |
mrmilo69
Joined: Oct 03, 2006
Posts: 197
PM |
If he's opened a dispute and it was settled, he cannot open another dispute about the same item, so what else can topscooby do? If he couldn't get paypal to do anything then, how will he now? Sell it in another region, best bet you'll recoup more than if the police get involved. It seems logical to me, you can ask topscooby to do something but you are being selfish to an extent. As long as you are not out of pocket you don't seem concerned, surely you should want to get to the bottom of this for the greater good of everyone or sell it in a different country and move on. | |
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Posted: 2007-02-16 13:42
