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Nokia toppled as UK No1 by Sony Ericsson? |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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shaliron
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| No competition, yet that didn't give Nokia much of a win. In fact Nokia placed the N73 against the 'dumb' K800 as its main rival because it thought the market was ready for smartphones. A win is a win. And SE won because it struck at the right time. Nokia has struck to early with their smartphones. |
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SE sells tonnes of w8**. But these W phones are much cheaper than N73/n80. They are in different segments. The only Nokia phones in that category is 6233/6280/7*. But these phones are not music centric.
Like I say, SE won in 2006 in music because there were not much competition. The big question is whether SE can hold on to the win when the competition get serious. Samsung won in clamshell 2 years ago because European makers like Nokia neglects the clamshell. And then Nokia woke up and start making clamshell phones to fight back.
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| acknowledge the ever increasing market share of Nokia and Moto are because a lot of their market share is based around ultra low end phones. |
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But you forgot Nokia's s60 high end phones sales are increasing at 3 times the pace of the general market trend. And Nokia is at the forefront in technology by introducing phones like n80/93/76/91/95. SE phone just dont stir the interest of the tech community. In terms of hardware/software specs/capability, I can safely say SE is still way behind.
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| which want users to download content and increase ARPU. Like comparing Hyundai (Motorola) with Mercedes (SE). |
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Certainly SE is not selling Mercedes.  Toyotas maybe. Smartphones like the N-series are the mercedes. Profit margin from the sales of smartphones are much higher than industry avg.
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goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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On 2007-01-24 06:39:32, mib1800 wrote:
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goldenface None of the others have caught up with At this time back in 2005 they were all trumpeting their respective music-phone solutions, Nokia was ready with its attempt, Moto had the ROKR etc and they were all ready for the music-phone battle. |
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SE has triumphed in music phones in 2006. This is because the competition were caught with their pants down. There were no serious music offering. Nokia was busy with their smartphones and moto/samsung with thin phone. In 2007, moto has z6 and samsung will go into music in big way. Nokia s60 phones has come down in size, better performance and price (e.g 6290/n76/n95) which not just music-centric but has a host of other advanced features (like multimedia and video recording).
It is easy to win a battle when there is no/few opponents. So let's just see how SE will fare this year when the competitions fight back.
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This is all well and good but  music phones have the higher profile and  sold more mp3 phones than iPods last quarter, so much so that most analysts now believe is a threat to the iPod and vice-versa.
Multimedia, video capabilities, tv-out etc aren't mainstream yet and they won't be until someone comes up with a good way of marketing it.
Plus I don't know why you brought S60 into the discussion. Go up to the average person in the street and say to them "S60" and they won't have the foggiest what your talking about. Say to them and more often than not they will!
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[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-01-24 09:36 ] |
JK
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: S. Africa - JOZI
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On 2007-01-24 10:25:31, mib1800 wrote:
shaliron
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| No competition, yet that didn't give Nokia much of a win. In fact Nokia placed the N73 against the 'dumb' K800 as its main rival because it thought the market was ready for smartphones. A win is a win. And SE won because it struck at the right time. Nokia has struck to early with their smartphones. |
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SE sells tonnes of w8**. But these W phones are much cheaper than N73/n80. They are in different segments. The only Nokia phones in that category is 6233/6280/7*. But these phones are not music centric.
Like I say, SE won in 2006 in music because there were not much competition. The big question is whether SE can hold on to the win when the competition get serious. Samsung won in clamshell 2 years ago because European makers like Nokia neglects the clamshell. And then Nokia woke up and start making clamshell phones to fight back.
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| acknowledge the ever increasing market share of Nokia and Moto are because a lot of their market share is based around ultra low end phones. |
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But you forgot Nokia's s60 high end phones sales are increasing at 3 times the pace of the general market trend. And Nokia is at the forefront in technology by introducing phones like n80/93/76/91/95. SE phone just dont stir the interest of the tech community. In terms of hardware/software specs/capability, I can safely say SE is still way behind.
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| which want users to download content and increase ARPU. Like comparing Hyundai (Motorola) with Mercedes (SE). |
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Certainly SE is not selling Mercedes. Toyotas maybe. Smartphones like the N-series are the mercedes. Profit margin from the sales of smartphones are much higher than industry avg.
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How many Nokia buyers buy the phone because of its symbian qualities compared to those that just buy the phone because its the latest Nokia?
SE is keeping Nokio on their toes!
Im sure the smart phone segment will be taken over by SE or HTC in the next couple of years. HTC is already doing far better than they expected.
Nokia is still just doing well becuase of the Name, wont be long now till people realise how crap it really is.
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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goldenface:
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Multimedia, video capabilities, tv-out etc aren't mainstream yet and they won't be until someone comes up with a good way of marketing it. |
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But this will certainly come. People are looking at N95/93 to replace their camcorder. Nokia is pushing "multimedia computer".
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| Go up to the average person in the street and say to them "S60" and they won't have the foggiest what your talking about. |
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True on s60. But I am pretty sure these people will tell you (if u ask them  ) that N-series phones have more advanced functionality than say a w810 eventhough they may not know the full extent of the "more".
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Residentevil
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Raccoon City, USA
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The ipod is highly overrated and I think a lotta ppl like to have a phone and mp3 player in one device. That makes the so successful.
Tough times don't last, tough people do!
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carkitter
Joined: Apr 29, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Auckland, NZ
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I wouldn't choose a N95 over a camcorder. Certainly not one of those 'record straight to DVD' Sony Handycam jobs.
As others have said, I believe have read thier market well and captured it's imagination.
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conor_jay
Joined: Aug 01, 2006
Posts: 26
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Its hardly surprising really, its hard to beat 2 devices condensed into one |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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On 2007-01-24 10:35:31, goldenface wrote:
This is all well and good but music phones have the higher profile and sold more mp3 phones than iPods last quarter, so much so that most analysts now believe is a threat to the iPod and vice-versa.
Multimedia, video capabilities, tv-out etc aren't mainstream yet and they won't be until someone comes up with a good way of marketing it.
Plus I don't know why you brought S60 into the discussion. Go up to the average person in the street and say to them "S60" and they won't have the foggiest what your talking about. Say to them and more often than not they will!
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This is true. Funny, I remember arguing with a mib a couple of years ago that S60 wasn't really in the hearts and minds of phone buyers, and his argument was that Nokia s60's were better phones because they are smartphones and that this would drive Nokia sales and keep them on top. Oh yes, I remember mib, I'm sure we discussed this!  We argued for pages about the relevance of smartphone to mobile phone sales!
Then shortly after SE brings out a walkman phone and steals the market.  Why did they steal the market? Because the opposition had their pants down? Precisely. Nokia failed to recognise the value of branding!! If they had only jumped into bed with Apple before the Walkman phone, they probably would be the ones with the "music phone" reputation.
The fact is, Nokia FAILED! No matter which way you look at it, they completely stuffed up.
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@max_wedge
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| The fact is, Nokia FAILED! No matter which way you look at it, they completely stuffed up. |
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I agree with you that Nokia failed in capturing music segment. On the other hand SE totally stuffed up in high-end multimedia/smartphone. SE high-end is in tatters as the P990/w950 were total disasters.
So yeah, SE can dominate in "mp3 player" but to a lot of buyers (like myself ) "mp3 player" is yesterday's play. Now we talk about wifi, gps, multimedia, vga video recording and smartphone.
btw: Nokia market share were up 2% and 6 million Nseries were sold in last QUARTER. Did I hear SE sold 18mil walkman in ONE year....yeah real big deal.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-01-25 13:55 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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On 2007-01-25 14:48:35, mib1800 wrote:
@max_wedge
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| The fact is, Nokia FAILED! No matter which way you look at it, they completely stuffed up. |
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I agree with you that Nokia failed in capturing music segment. On the other hand SE totally stuffed up in high-end multimedia/smartphone. SE high-end is in tatters as the P990/w950 were total disasters.
So yeah, SE can dominate in "mp3 player" but to a lot of buyers (like myself ) "mp3 player" is yesterday's play. Now we talk about wifi, gps, multimedia, vga video recording and smartphone.
btw: Nokia market share were up 2% and 6 million Nseries were sold in last QUARTER. Did I hear SE sold 18mil walkman in ONE year....yeah real big deal.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-01-25 13:55 ]
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I agree with you about the high end of SE - it is their week point. And while I feel W950 and P990 are excellent phones, it's a light offering, and also disappointing that there is no smartphone other than P990 with a camera. I'm not unhappy with the smartphones SE have released, I think they are great phones however they need more smartphones in the range to compete with the variety that Nokia offer.
And HOW LONG have we waited for a hard screen UIQ? It's coming apparently...but my we've waited a long time.
I think you are wrong about multimedia. SE have good phones, Nokia have good phones, neither offer one phone with everything. VGA video is only availabla in the N93, soon SE will have a cybershot or handycam branded phone that will offer similar.
Wifi is model specific. Some SE models have wifi, some Nokia models have wifi, so what? Neither have it as standard. Though I admit, like smartphones, Nokia have better choice.
The way I see it a couple of years ago SE where struggling to make marketshare because they had great "all in one" phones but only a limited variety. They had only one handset in each market segment. Now they have fixed the low and mid range. They have introduced bulk models in each segment, and this is as much to do with their success lately as the Walkman brand.
If they can do the same in the smartphone segment, they will start to actually impact on Nokia's smartphone marketshare (as opposed to just taking it from the other manufacturers). But they do need more variety of smartphones.
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@max_wedge
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| VGA video is only availabla in the N93, soon SE will have a cybershot or handycam branded phone that will offer similar. |
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Handycam phone is not announced yet and by the time it reaches the market it is at least a year behind. Like I say before SE is way behind in hardware and software technology.
BTW: 6233/88 have vga recording but at lower frame rate. Even now, at the minimum all nseries has CIF mp4 quality. These videos are very watchable on TV. No video taken by any SE phones (except p990 and discontinued w900) can be viewed on a TV screen.
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| Wifi is model specific. Some SE models have wifi, some Nokia models have wifi, so what? Neither have it as standard. |
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The only SE wifi model is overly expensive P990. Nokia has at least 6 models in all price range now. A nokia's VP said in a recent interview that all future N-series will have wifi as standard. Also, nokia is moving towards on-phone 3.5mm jack and mini-usb port. I dont think SE will adopt this anytime soon as SE like to tied in their customers with proprietary connector/format.
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| They have introduced bulk models in each segment, and this is as much to do with their success lately as the Walkman brand. |
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I must commend SE for walkman success. They saw an opening amidst the fighting giants (nokia/moto/samsung) and jump in to grab the untapped music segment. But the coming year will no longer be a stroll in the park like before for SE as the other manufacturers go all out into music.
Let's see how SE walkman fare against Moto z6 or samsung thin music or Nokia's 6290/n76 music offering with its superior smartphone capability.
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mario2004
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
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From: South Africa
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The wifi implementation by SE is pathetic to say the 'least'. The only SE device with wifi only manages the by now archaic 'b'-standard :( To talk about SE and WIFI is like talking about fighter-jets and Wright -brothers. The other thing is - S60. If anything will manage to topple Microsoft, S60 will. Also please remember the biggest camera seller is still Nokia - cybershot or not(unfortunately). Between nokia and se there are other camera companies too (canon is one of them) yes SE did extremly well in the second half of last year, but even a 100% increase on 1cent gives you the grand sum of 2cent :D. My biggest gripe with SE is how easely they have conceded defeat at the 'top' ! They take a year to bring out a 'flagship' model and they haven't amounced anything yet for first quarter 2008 ! I wonder how long their 'cybershot' gravy train marketing stunt will last ? On the other hand I hope they manage to keep their heads above 10% market share. Now I consider buying from them :D
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Dups!
Joined: Sep 24, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: GMT +2
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Why are you nokia boys so preoccupied with market share when SE is very profitable? Compare the revenues to that of samsungs and you'll get a clear picture. Market share for SE is steadily rising and it will continue that way. Anyway, we always expect nokia fans to do their best to look down on SE. We'll surely speak end of next year when end of year results are released by all the manufacturers and see how things stand. |
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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I see this discussion has gone down the road of 'which manufacturer has the highest high-end'.
It seems to me - according to the analyst figures - that Nokia's growth has come from it success in emerging markets - rather than the greatness of its N series smartphones.
Sony Ericsson last year did exactly what it set out to do, go for growth in the mid-range, so it moved into Nokia's territory and completely outgunned Nokia's mid-range with the K800i/K790i, K750i, W810 and W850i - so Sony Ericsson made better products.
Take the UK for example - Nokia was lucky to have 2 phones in the top ten best sellers for the final half of the year.
This year will see more Cyber-shot and more Walkman handsets being launched and Nokia's mid - range will have an even greater battle on its handset - so much so that it will probably be relegated to selling its mid-range handsets out of wheelbarrows on the street. Or giving them away in boxes of Cheerios.
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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On 2007-01-26 05:01:10, mario2004 wrote:
The wifi implementation by SE is pathetic to say the 'least'. The only SE device with wifi only manages the by now archaic 'b'-standard  To talk about SE and WIFI is like talking about fighter-jets and Wright -brothers. The other thing is - S60. If anything will manage to topple Microsoft, S60 will. Also please remember the biggest camera seller is still Nokia - cybershot or not(unfortunately). Between nokia and se there are other camera companies too (canon is one of them) yes SE did extremly well in the second half of last year, but even a 100% increase on 1cent gives you the grand sum of 2cent  . My biggest gripe with SE is how easely they have conceded defeat at the 'top' ! They take a year to bring out a 'flagship' model and they haven't amounced anything yet for first quarter 2008 ! I wonder how long their 'cybershot' gravy train marketing stunt will last ? On the other hand I hope they manage to keep their heads above 10% market share. Now I consider buying from them
This message was posted from a N70-1
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Hey Mario nice to see yo mate! forget about s60, no one cares about smart phones. For 2 years we've been arguing with you and Mib about smartphones being the big feature that everyone wants and that will keep Nokia in the dominant position, but in those two years the market has consistantly demonstrated no interest in smart phones at all.
I agree with MIB (begrudgingly) about multimedia, though I believe SE will catch up, just as they will in the smartphone bracket. And the only edge Nokia have in multimedia imho, is in video quality. In all other respects SE offer nicer, better quality and better spec'd phones. (leave s60 out of it, no one really cares about it except us tech heads)
Oh and s60 has a LONG LONG way to go before it is as common as PocketPC as the choice of business OS for phones.
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Posted: 2007-01-24 10:25
