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which headphones for walkman phones? |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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@sanjeevjaya
I don't think i can wholly agree with you as now most if not all Music players are of a more than decent quality in most mid to top range phones.
What i think is important to remember is that the sound you will get is reliant on the two weakest links and these IMO will effect the results more than any other factor. The first is how you connect the headphones to the phone as a lack of quality in this will really drag the overall performance down, so a cheap connector off E-Bay or the like really is a waste of money IMO.
The second of course is the headphones i was quite happy with the performance of the Sony MDR-EX71SL but the wires are very thin which does not do the performance any favours. Seeing as the Shure EC2's were only £40 i don't consider that outrageously expensive for what they are. Also my last headphones have lasted me a good couple of years so an upgrade every couple of years is quite reasonable I think.
The first thing i noticed on getting them was just how much thicker the cable is plus of course the overall feel of the construction an upgrade to the next level up of Sony's would only of saved me about £10 and personally i think the increase in quality was well worth an extra £10 as the resulting performance really is quite amazing IMO.
The other factor is the bit rate at which the Music is encoded but as memory cards prices have continued to fall i always encode at the best quality and highest rate as in AAC @ 160kbps this still only averages at 4mb per track so am able to get plenty of albums on a 2gb card.
There really isn't only one choice as everyone's preference's will be slightly different dependant on the type of music they listen to for how long and in what environments and of course the budget they have.
Marc
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wrecked_porsche
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@Dogman and max_wedge
Yes, what you guys are saying is also true, however, what I meant is that if you get high end canalphones, you won't be making full use of them.
@max_wedge, of course there will be a noticable difference, I didn't say the  was thaaat bad or did I?  In fact I agree when you change headphones there will be a noticeable difference, hence my sugestion of the Philips SHE9500 or Creative.  The HPM is crap anyway.
About changing the headphones and noticing the difference, the same thing applies to what I said, just as you would notice a considerable difference in SQ when you change headphones, so will you when you change from a phone to a better Mp3 player. I hope you understand what I mean?  I'm just saying no point in going high end if the phone is gonna be the limiting factor.
@Dogman, I'm just saying that the isn't one of the best out there, I'm not saying its the worst, just that is not up to par with the best of mp3 players. But its not bad for a phone.
Maybe its because I hang around Audiophile forums too much. I've crossed over to the dark side. 
I wasn't picky about the SQ, but now I am.
Just my 2 cents.
BTW, a little OT, but anyone know the SNR of the phones? |
max_wedge
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sanjeevjaya, I accept that there are going to be better mp3 players out there. I once had a creative muvo, the first version (128MB, without lcd) but never did back to back tests against my phone (a K700 at the time). Basic impressions where that it was much the same but with slightly higher volume output. But then K750 has better volume output than K700 also. And I never did proper testing with higher codecs.
A device like the early Muvo I owned won't be as competent as the latest ones from creative though I'm sure.
Dogman - itunes, nero, db poweramp etc can rip aac vbr at higher than 160Kbps. Perhaps you are thinking about ABR codecs?
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Dogmann
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@MaxWedge,
Actually for ease of use i use Nokia Music manager as in all honestly i am lazy and like things to be as easy as possible. So just put a CD in the drive and it converts automatically for me one click and it and transfers to the memory card. I have found 160kpbs AAC to both give small file size and great quality so if it ain't broke i ain't gonna fix it. LOL As i said even 50% of volume is very loud and I'm closer to 50 than 40 so am sure my hearing is not as good as it has been. I also don't doubt that a dedicated Music Player would quite possibly give better results but there is no way i would carry another device and then have the problem of not knowing when my phone was ringing. Oh yes and sorry i should of pointed out i am not using a Walkman phone but my N93.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-04-15 02:28 ] |
max_wedge
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That explains it dogman, and you are right, 160Kbps is pretty good, pretty much on par with 192Kbps in MP3 format.
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wrecked_porsche
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Yeah, I guess it just boils down with how content you are with it. The higher end you go, the better its is.
@guys, it not just the loudness, its the sound quality. Things like SNR and output frequency range. These things will be noticeable when u use better headphones. Regarding the loudness, this depends on the impedance of the individual headphone and how easy it is to drive it. Also, how powerful the source device is. This can be solved with a portable headphone amp such as the PA2V2.
I tried a song called Dorset Perception by Shpongle @256kb/s mp3 and my phone could not handle it! It screeches/gets stuck/struggles at a few places where there are tons of instruments. Really sucks. Play this instrumental track on your phone and you'll know what I mean about the phones being inferior and not deserving high end headphones. Then try it on your mp3 player, and notice the difference(with good headphones of course).
On a side note, I think  should advertise their phones with SNR and output frequency range since they carry the branding. It would be interesting to know. Unless of course they are trying to hide something...
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Dogmann
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@sanjeevjaya
Actually you have raised a very good point that i actually hadn't put into the equation i forgot that my device has a 330mhz processor and more than enough Ram to process and output the information as i would imagine this is also the reason for good sound quality. I agree completely Volume has nothing to do with quality as long as it is loud enough without distorting and the quality remains just being loud is no guarantee of anything but not being loud enough is defiantly annoying.
Marc
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wrecked_porsche
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Well, the issue of not being loud enough, IIANM it has to do with the headphone impedance. When you buy a headphone to use with a phone or portable mp3 player, take note that in the specssheet it should be around 30 ~ 40++ Ohms.
If its around 100 to 200++ Ohms, then you're gonna find that you'll get low volume. But like I said, a headphone amp should do the trick and solve your problem. This is because the source device is weak and needs an amp to amplify its output. 
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Dogmann
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@sanjeevjaya
Not so sure about your figures as the Shure EC2's have a Sensitivity of 105Db SPL/mW @ 1 kHz whatever that means and 160ohms @ 1 kHz and as i have said i have no volume or quality issues thankfully. Although i have seen mentioned before that 20-30 ohms does give better results. To be honest i really am not that technical when it comes to sound it either works and i like it or it doesn't and i don't.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-04-15 18:35 ] |
wrecked_porsche
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Sorry if I wasn't very clear in my previous post. Let me elaborate.
The reason that you don't have volume issues is because I think the N93 has some kind of amp built in. I think the phones should have them built in too. For that size, i think phones most phones should have some sort of amp built in.
I don't think the values I stated there are wrong, its just a rough guide anyway.
Anyway, its not just the headphone having a high impedance value that will guarantee to result in low volume. Its a combination of high impedance headphone + weak source. If your headphones have a high impedance value and you have a weak source, now that's when you'll encounter the volume problem. If your headphones have a high impedance but you have a source that's able to drive the headphones there should be no problems (like in your case).
In your case, the 160 Ohm canalphones are not giving you problems because you are using a reliable source that can drive the canalphones properly.
As a rough guide, the 30~40 Ohm headphones can be driven easily from most devices. I'm just saying that the higher the impedance, then you gotta make sure you have a reliable source. If your source is weak, you're in trouble. 
If you plug your 160 Ohm headphones into those tiny mp3 players, you know those slim ones that look like usb drives? Then I think you'd have some volume problems. Worse if you're using Bayerdynamic headphones that have 200++ Ohms... IIANM, those headphones are really hard to drive.
Have you used any headphones that had really low volume before? What were the specs? And what was your source player? I haven't used any high impedance headphones before so I'd like to hear your experince/opinion regarding those if you have had any of them before.
Just my 2 cents, I hope that people who read it find the info useful.
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[ This Message was edited by: sanjeevjaya on 2007-04-15 18:44 ] |
Dogmann
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@sanjeevjaya
Many thanks for your clear explanations as it's always good to learn something new.
Previously i have been using the Sony MDR-EX71SL and the HBH-DS-970's with a M600 and was less than impressed. I also tried the same combinations with a W950 and even the W880 which as Walkman phones i did expect to be good and as mentioned by others found the volume and even sound separation not that great.
On using the N93 with the MDR-EX71SL's i found the depth and clarity plus volume all to be much better which is why i stuck with it and decided that after a couple of years it was time to upgrade my headphones. Originally i bought the MDR-EX71SL's to use with a Sony PEG-UX50 PDA and was quite happy with the results from that. To be honest the N93 with the Shure's gives the best result i have so far had out of any combo and although i have the Nokia BH-500 Bluetooth Stereo head unit personally i think the sound from a wired solution is much better and having wires for better sound is a price worth paying IMO.
Marc
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wrecked_porsche
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Your welcome, I'm glad my post was of some use to you.
Aha, so I see my original post was right, the phones are not soo great after all... Even the nokia N93 is better. You've even given the new W880 a try I see. Well, I haven't got a chance to test it out yet.
I still stand by my original point, the phones don't deserve a high end headphone because they don't have the potential to drive it properly. What's worse is the flaws become more apparent. Well, to my ears anyway.
I wish would put a little more effort into it.  Its a for God sake!
I agree with you, the BT headphones are not very good at all when it comes to music. I'd much prefer a wired solution from the pros such as Shure/Ety/Bayer/Senn/Audio Technica because they have been in this business a very long time and know what they are doing.
To get better sound stage/separation try headphones instead of canalphones. If you're not a bass-head, an open type headphone is good for you, if you like bass, get a closed type, less sound-stage but more bass. But bear in mind that an open type headphone will disturb others around you and you'll also be able to hear outside noise/distractions.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. I Nokia N95 8GB and N82 |
max_wedge
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My K750 drives my Sennheiser HD202's pretty well:
Ohms: 32
THD: <.5%
Max. Sound Pressure Level: 115dB
Frequency response: 18-18000Hz
I can hear fairly major improvements from 128Kbps AAC to 160Kbps AAC (I'm yet to try higher bitrates); actually 160Kbps AAC sound freaking brilliant with the Sennheisers but I reckon 192Kbps AAC will sound even better and I can't wait to try it (oh dear, I'll have to pull out my cd's and do some more ripping). It's more obvious how competent the player is with these headphones compared to the stock units that come with the HPM-70.
Using the standard HPM-70 ear buds though, it's still worth using the 160Kbps or higher to get that little extra quality, though 128Kbps is reasonable. But I find 96Kbps AAC unacceptable with either the cheaper HPM-70 ear buds, or the HD202's. Too much image detail is lost from the audio.
Notes on SNR:
From the research I've done on the net, W800 seems to have a signal to noise ratio of about 80dB. This is similar, as expected I suppose, to the Sony Walkman players.
This SNR is about the same as ipod, but many higher profile MP3 players have better SNR than either ipod or Sony or SE Walkman players
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wrecked_porsche
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On 2007-04-17 01:50:13, max_wedge wrote:
Notes on SNR:
From the research I've done on the net, W800 seems to have a signal to noise ratio of about 80dB. This is similar, as expected I suppose, to the Sony Walkman players.
This SNR is about the same as ipod, but many higher profile MP3 players have better SNR than either ipod or Sony or SE Walkman players
My point exactly. My Creative has a 98 dB SNR, which is only ONE of the better points compared to the phones. We should also take into account the output frequency range of the phones vs good mp3 players, because a good pair of headphones supports a wider range of output frequency and can make use of it well. This will be totally wasted on a phone.
No matter how good your encoding, the same music will always sound better on the MP3 player.
I use 192kb/s mp3s on my phone, no less. On my Creative Mp3 player I try to use 256kb/s or higher.
I need to do more testing using 256kb/s on my phone and see if other songs struggle to play too.
BTW, here are the specs of my headphones:
Specifications
Type: Airtightness Dynamic
Driver Unit: phi 42mm
Magnet: Neodymium
Output overpressure value: 100dB/mW (JEITA)
Impedence: 30 ohms
Largest input: 100mW
Playback frequency zone: 5 - 30,000Hz
Plug: Mini/Standard Gold plated
Cord length: 1.2m (Single) (OFC)
Weight: 160g
@Max, whats your experience with 256kb/s mp3s and above on your phone? Notice any of the symptoms I described in my previous posts?
[ This Message was edited by: sanjeevjaya on 2007-04-17 03:55 ] |
Dogmann
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Hi sanjeevjaya & Max,
it does seem that we have slipped into our own little discussion here and i do think we have actually reached some very interesting conclusions as well.
The first being we all seem to agree on the importance of using a quality connector as this really does effect the overall results and also that whilst using low bit rates to get as much Music as possible on a memory card quality really does suffer.
Also that there really isn't just one headphone that will work well with everything as besides personal preference a lot depends of the device being used.
Personally i wouldn't go for over ear headphones for out of the House use so prefer in ear and whilst it would be relatively easy to re convert my music at higher than 160kbps AAC. I do found this offers a more than acceptable quality and file size and the easiest for me to do.
Whilst in principle i do accept that most quality MP3 players will give a better result than most phones, i do feel their are exceptions to this rule not many but some.
At least so far in this discussion we have manged to accept each others opinions and possibly some one reading this may also of learnt something. As it does appear that some believe just getting as much music as possible in the smallest space is best, which obviously it isn't.
Marc
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Posted: 2007-04-14 18:46
Nokia N95 8GB and N82
