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SE failing in producing good phones? |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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On 2007-06-05 11:02:43, QVGA wrote:
On 2007-06-05 11:01:11, plankgatan wrote:
but please, do you really think thats optical lenses just improve the zoom !
of course you got better video quality if you have "pure" optical lenses (zoom or not).
i wish i could just post an audio link here because sometimes LOL just doesnt cut it.
What is a "pure" optical zoom. Is there a such thing as an "impure" optical zoom. Not making fun of your language skills but rather your grasp of the technology.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? | |
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plankgatan
Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: Sweden fur alle
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ok. ....
who believes thats a cell phone with optical zoom ONLY improve the pic quality when you zooming,
and who believes its improves when you doing booth (zoom or not).
just curious !
edit. with pure optical zoom i mean something like N93. (lenses who moves)....and like i said before, sometimes i have trouble to explain things.
[ This Message was edited by: plankgatan on 2007-06-05 10:09 ]
[ This Message was edited by: plankgatan on 2007-06-05 10:12 ] |
QVGA
Joined: May 23, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Pakistan
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in ALL optical zoom the lens physically moves, the lens which doesnt does not support optical zoom.
there is no such thing as optical lens, its optical zoom a.k.a for the layman, the lens which moves to zoom in. |
plankgatan
Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: Sweden fur alle
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ok, but you said that optical zoom ONLY improve the zooming.
of course its improves ALL quality (zoom or not), how hard can it be....
i said from the start that if you want some good video quality, you need optical zoom (optical lenses).
[ This Message was edited by: plankgatan on 2007-06-05 10:16 ] |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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On 2007-06-05 11:07:12, plankgatan wrote:
ok. ....
who believes thats a cell phone with optical zoom ONLY improve the pic quality when you zooming,
and who believes its improves when you doing booth (zoom or not).
just curious !
edit. with pure optical zoom i mean something like N93. (lenses who moves)....and like i said before, sometimes i have trouble to explain things.
[ This Message was edited by: plankgatan on 2007-06-05 10:09 ]
[ This Message was edited by: plankgatan on 2007-06-05 10:12 ]
Like I said, no worries about the language. No here is picking on you about that nor should they. Esato is a multi-lauguage, multi-cultural forum and everyone should respect this so no worries.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
QVGA
Joined: May 23, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Pakistan
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On 2007-06-05 11:14:39, plankgatan wrote:
ok, but you said that optical zoom ONLY improve the zooming.
of course its improves ALL quality (zoom or not), how hard can it be....
i said from the start that if you want some good video quality, you need optical zoom (optical lenses).
[ This Message was edited by: plankgatan on 2007-06-05 10:16 ]
optical zoom only improves zoom, thats why its called optical ZOOM. |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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@QVGA,
Don't even start on "digital zoom". 
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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SE were the first manufacturer to support the multi-tasking Java VM. Due to the commitment to a flexible and powerful JAVA platform, SE have lead the field in making non-smartphones start to be competitive with smartphones. This is a boon for mid-range phones giving them the cost of midrange but flexibility of a high end smartphone (of the non-touchscreen variety ie: Nokia s60 and similar) This doesn't make a non-smartphone as flexible as an s60 device (yet), but SE before any other OEM are pushing this envelope. Nokai users tend to overlook the advances in JAVA since they assume it can be no competition for the s60 platform, but JAVA is not the poxy little game platform that it started out as. Infact, when searching for apps for my N70, I found far more useful apps in the java platform (which work well on my K750 but invariably don't work on N70) than I could symbian apps for the N70. Especially in the freeware category. My point is that many who don't use it have under-estimated java as an application platform.
This is what I mean by the one-eyed view of those who claim Nokia is leading edge but that SE have lost their technical prowess. Just because a range of features that Nokia have but SE don't have is not an argument that SE have lost the edge. They may be behind Nokia in some areas, but in others they are way ahead. Nokia has stalled development on the touchscreen and ignored JAVA as a potential threat because they already have a smartphone hardscreen os. So both these factors are allowing SE to gain ground on Nokia (in different segments).
While P990 has been criticised for not being able to multi-task well, K800 can do it with aplomb. You can access pda functions, file system, phone functions, ir and bluetooth, audio and video functions and much more with JAVA apps, and on the latest SE phones you can task switch between up to 8 different java apps as well. So the argument that many smartphone users use against non-smartphones ie: that smartphones are expandable due to 3rd party software, now applies to SE non-smartphones.
One day Nokia will turn around and find that s60 has no discernable advantage over non-smart SE phones.
After running the N70 I own for a few weeks, I greatfully returned to using my K750, because even though I can't multi-task between running java apps (as is possible on K800), I found the JSR75 and other java API's of the K750 are so flexible that I actually have more useful applications on my K750 than I could find without forking out dollars left right and centre for the symbian based N70 apps. And much more importantly than that, the K750 is more stable than the N70, so as an application platform it's actually "almost" competitive with the N70. But it cost a quarter of the cost of an N70.
You admit that Nokia is behind on cameras but dismiss that as not important, I simply don't agree that it's unimportant. SE have 3G phones, they have wifi phones, but not leading edge. Surely the camera issue the same thing but in reverse? It's also the camera UI - which in SE is way ahead of any other OEM in terms of a traditional camera interface - which has evolved and developed in digital cameras for the last ten years. SE cameras are more like traditonal cameras in their use than any other make. This to me is an important MARKET LEADING practice.
Some people want ot browse the net as fast as possible on a phone, some want the best possible picture that is possible from a phone. I could argue why does someone want such fast download speeds on a phone when they could use that bandwidth much more effectively on a laptop? The answer is because no one wants to carry around a laptop. Likewise I want the best camera i can get in a phone. Please don't tell me I should use a "proper" digital camera. It's about convenience, and at this stage SE are pushing the envolope of how good a camera can be in a phone, and that to me is leading edge, and helps to ensure better and better camera phones every year. It also stimulated Nokia into improving their own camera phone offerings, so Nokia users ought to thank SE for that. Competition improves the breed.
Sapporobaby, I understand your frustration about mac support, but as I've already stated, SE COMPUTER support is pretty crap for PC and MAC both. Believe me I don't use PC Suite or Disc2Phone, and don't miss it. Third party apps are more than adequate. Infact, I wish I could find the third party phone management app for my N70 that matches "My Phone Explorer" for SE.
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sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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Nice post Max.
How is it down under?
You know what. This time in about a year we will be having this discussion that Nokia makes crap phones and SE is at the top of the heap.
Damn, I just hope the stuff works.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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Me too, I hope the new stuff runs as quickly and smoothly as it should do - first time.
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QVGA
Joined: May 23, 2006
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From: Pakistan
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@maxx
great post, but i still dont get why you bring N70 into the equation. Its got a old OS that nokia no longer makes and is widely known to be prone to crashes and hang-ups. Most issues the OS of N70 had have been addressed in the newer version of symbian. |
KingBooker5
Joined: May 12, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: London, England
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sapporbaby, dogman and max, you guys obviously know a lot of stuff on gadgets and it will be intresting to here what you think of "sofia" to you believe in the rumour or think its a lie? |
QVGA
Joined: May 23, 2006
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From: Pakistan
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On 2007-06-05 18:46:21, KingBooker5 wrote:
sapporbaby, dogman and max, you guys obviously know a lot of stuff on gadgets and it will be intresting to here what you think of "sofia" to you believe in the rumour or think its a lie?
whats the rumor about it? |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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Hi Max,
I said were and that is in past tense and the only real advantage was down to low level light pictures due to the Xenon flash Nokia have now addressed this issue.
As for
"One day Nokia will turn around and find that s60 has no discernible advantage over non-smart SE phones."
You really can not be serious this may well be your opinion but to compare Java to one of the best selling and powerful smart phone OS is a joke. I really do doubt Nokia or any other smart phone manufacturer has anything to fear in this. Yes Java does enable dumb phones to achieve certain tasks but if you are right why is there no Java smart phone being produced? as surely if it was so good and so much cheaper to implement some one would of done this by now.
Again you just can not accept the fact that SE is not putting the latest tech in it's devices to suggest they have 3G as showing they do is frankly just silly as if they didn't they would of severely reduced their potential market wouldn't they.
This is exactly what they are doing by not making multiband devices people who need or want these bands just can't choose an SE and that can't be good can it. Stop talking about just Nokia as it is not just them that have all the new Technology's in their devices is it and this is what makes the fact that SE doesn't even more obvious. If it was just Nokia i may be able to give your argument some relevance but it isn't is it?
How come Motorola who came to the UIQ3 platform after SE had realeased their first extremely troubled devices is now about to launch their first UIQ3 device that has everything bar the 3.2 mega pixel camera and has all the tech you could need, admittedly it doesn't have WiFi but with up to 7.2mbps HSDPA it could be argued it doesn't really need it. But it does have a faster chip an better graphics plus of course HSDPA.
@KingBooker5
As for Sofia who knows what this will bring but so far it has been coming for so long it is getting silly as whilst it was a logical advancement from the K800. Since then Nokia have already released one 5 mega pixel camera equipped smart phone and have another one due this year and this time with a Xenon flash as well stealing the SE high ground from them especially as it is a smart phone and it looks likely to arrive before Sophia. Which we don't really have the true spec's for yet and may not even be a smart phone so if it is the same price as the N73/K800 were it is going to have some serious competition IMO.
For now i really do think this thread has run it's course i have made my points more times than i feel necessary and will not continue to repeat them again and again. We are all entitled to our own opinions on this, i have reached the conclusion that very few of us are going to change our position. I rest my case in the facts and until they change there really is nothing more to discuss as the facts speak for themselves.
Marc
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Nokia E61 2gb Sandisk, Fring, Tom Tom 6, AD-46 with Black Shure EC2g
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-06-05 19:10 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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On 2007-06-05 16:20:37, QVGA wrote:
@maxx
great post, but i still dont get why you bring N70 into the equation. Its got a old OS that nokia no longer makes and is widely known to be prone to crashes and hang-ups. Most issues the OS of N70 had have been addressed in the newer version of symbian.
I only drew the parallel because it's my direct experience - but both phones are the same age so it's a valid comparison. I agree that N73 is much better re: crashing etc than the N70. I's just an example of how a non-smartphone CAN compete in some areas with a smartphone.
@dogmann, you use N95 all-in-one as a market leader example, but SE is not because they don't have the latest of everything, then propose a Motorola UIQ3 that doesn't have wifi or a 3MP camera?? WIFI is about more than fast connectivity it's also about connection to wifi hotspots that are invariably free (not to mention fee free connection to home networks). To say HSDPA is equal to wifi is a bit of a draw isn't it? HSDPA is currently still slower than WIFI b, so how can you complain about P990 wifi b (12Mbps) then dismiss wifi as necessary at all? HSDPA is shared by users, just like current 3G services or even GPRS. This means as more users jump on board, ACTUAL speeds drop very quickly to between 10-25% of theoretical maximum. On top of this, as you become further from the tower, speeds decrease - so 7Mbps will only be when no one else is using the network in your cell and you are standing under the cell tower.
So when sitting at home, given a choice between accessing the internet on my home wireless using a wifi B standard P990 or using a HSDPA device for the privelege of paying my operator (when I already have an interent connection in my lounge room) I'll take the P990 over the Motorola!
You get your arguments mixed up.  By extension, if SE have let you down then how can you use the Motorola UIQ3 handset as an example of leadiung edge technology? Only if you claim that the only important leading edge technology is UMTS can you make that argument. And I'm afraid to say that leading edge is about more than UMTS for most people IMHO
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Posted: 2007-06-05 11:04
