| Author |
Have Sony Ericsson finally taken the lead in global mobile phone solutions? |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
PM |
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-21 02:53:49, max_wedge wrote:
@mib, the evidence we are quoting which you don't seem to place any value on, (a lot of people here agree with scots in principle, if not in every little degree of his argument), is a huge body of anecdotal evidence, discussions with friends, observations in phone shops, marketing methods used by telcos and phone companies, and many other bits of evidence that are at least as good if not better than your inconclusive statistics 
Come and sit in the local vodafone shop and ask me how many times you hear the word smartphone? Not too often.
I know because I've waited in those stores for hours at a time 
|
|
I can also use the "evidences" as brought out but arrive at the opposite conclusion. All depends on your point of view.
You can't do that with stat.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2005-03-21 02:13 ] | |
|
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
PM, WWW
|
hahahah!! Actually, stats can be used by one person to arrive at a completely different set of conclusions to another. Politicians do it all the time
I can certainly accept that the anecdotal evidence I mentioned, and other very well constructed arguments in this thread, are not necessarily proof, no matter how logical they seem. But are you really sure stats are that reliable? Stats can be very easily misread or worse, misrepresentative of the truth.
hehe, some of the things I've seen claimed by statistical analysis....(I used to work in the government sector  )
|
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
PM, WWW
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-21 01:37:03, mib1800 wrote:
Dont forget u r also repeating the same point.
|
|
Indeed I have, but then that has more to do with the capacity of the intended recipient to absorb and digest that point.
Quote:
|
When I ask for any third party proof many times, you just hv repeatedly ignore that. You kept saying what I hv brought out is untrue and yet you hv provided no concrete proof that it is otherwise.
|
|
I am actually wondering if you are reading what I am writing because your answers seem to indicate that you are reading something other than what I am typing.
As max mentioned before I have given you ample evidence based upon actual people and experiences, a basis that is rooted in the opinions of the very people central to this debate.
I did not call your statistics untrue, I merely made the point that they can be used to prove points contrary to the ones you were trying to make. This is the chief fault in using statistics.
Quote:
|
So what is the point in further debate? YAWN.
|
|
One wonders, since I have had to repeat myself numerous times to get even basic points across and continue to meet a wall of misconception (deliberate or otherwise) on your part. If you are able to conclusively prove that the estimated 6% market share of smartphones in Western Europe is indicative of an uptake of smartphones beyond their more base features by a large cross-section of the populace, then please do so.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
PM |
@scotsboyuk
Quote:
|
One wonders, since I have had to repeat myself numerous times to get even basic points across and continue to meet a wall of misconception (deliberate or otherwise) on your part. If you are able to conclusively prove that the estimated 6% market share of smartphones in Western Europe is indicative of an uptake of smartphones beyond their more base features by a large cross-section of the populace, then please do so.
|
|
Geez...maybe that's where our misunderstanding lies. I believe my intention was not to debate, I quote "...by a large cross-section of the populace". I thought we have agreed very early on that a large section (low to midrange) of the buying population have no use of functions beyond the basic or maybe basic+camera.
I always thought we r debating the higher-end where K750 is positioned. If your point is that K750 is just a mid-range phone (i.e. with prices considerably less than s60) or your argument is based on the WHOLE phone market, then then you can throw this debate out of the window.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2005-03-22 05:15 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
PM |
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-21 12:48:02, max_wedge wrote:
hahahah!! Actually, stats can be used by one person to arrive at a completely different set of conclusions to another. Politicians do it all the time
I can certainly accept that the anecdotal evidence I mentioned, and other very well constructed arguments in this thread, are not necessarily proof, no matter how logical they seem. But are you really sure stats are that reliable? Stats can be very easily misread or worse, misrepresentative of the truth.
hehe, some of the things I've seen claimed by statistical analysis....(I used to work in the government sector )
|
|
I am not using the statistics beyond the figures. All I'm saying is that smartphone sales has been increasing for the past 2 years. Based on this trend, smartphone is becoming more popular. Same with smartphone software sales / development of new smartphone handsets. I did not derive new fact from stats. All I'm doing is projecting the trend. (of course, you may argue the trend is wrong but this can only be proven in the future and not now).
Contrast this to one who tries to derive other facts from the stat. For example, "if economic growth is x% this year, then the rate of poverty will be reduced by y%."
How about one more relevant to this debate: "The growth of smartphone is x% but this figure should be reduced by 90% because I have the knowledge that 90% of my friends who bought smartphone do not use smartphone capability"
|
whizkidd
Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: India
PM, WWW
|
:-D. I agree with all you guys that smartphones don't sell for their smartphone capabilities- but but when, a phone offers all the features you have in a normal phone, plus smartphone abilities, i would always prefer a series 60 phone to a phone like the K750. The reasons? Reasonable camera, good screen, mp3 player, net browsing on the move, memory expansion, reasonable price. If i take all these factors into account- the series 60 phones make sense! Yes, the K750 offers all these, but S60 is vfm.
This message was posted from a T230 |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
PM, WWW
|
@mib, you say "All I'm saying is that smartphone sales has been increasing for the past 2 years", yes you are right that's what the stats say. I am assuming the stats say smartphones are an increasing proportion of new sales, since just selling more smartphones means nothing as all classes of phones are selling more. However, stats say nothing about why the smartphones are an increasing proportion of new sales. You are trying to tell us that since a high proportion of new phone sales are smartphones, therefore there is a growing demand for smartphones as an integral feature to the phone.
This is an assumption. Show me new stats to prove it.
You simply cannot draw that conclusion from the given stats.
|
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
PM |
@max_wedge
Quote:
| You are trying to tell us that since a high proportion of new phone sales are smartphones, therefore there is a growing demand for smartphones as an integral feature to the phone.
|
|
I have NOT said this at all. If you've read my posts, I'm saying that phone like K750 is going to compete head-on with s60. I also said "smartphone capability" is the free icing on the cake and this has an added advantage to break the tie if someone has narrowed his decision to a K750 or a s60.
It is the opposing posts (to mine) that has used the the "opposite of your statement" above to counter my points. Just because you are supporting the "opposite of your statement" above, it doesnt mean I am advocating that statement.
|
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
PM |
I think it is time we touched-base on the topic of discussion as we are in danger of leaving it behind altogether.
Have Sony Ericsson finally taken the lead in global mobile phone solutions?
Vanquish thinks this is so because the new range of phones being released by SE recently set new standards for mobile phones.
Ultra compact. well designed 3G phone K600.
Slim (T610 sized) 2MP cam phones (K750).
Low end handset with great multimedia features (J300)
Music phone launched.
Finally, a low-end handset with great features K300i.
Long awaited general release of highly-acclaimed 3G clamshell (Z800)
Mib1800 says Nokia sells more smartphones so maybe not.
Scotsboy asks what has selling more smartphones got to do with it?
|
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
PM |
goldenface:
I think u hv missed out the following from my view.
"If K750/K600/W800 is leading edge, then how would you describe the following:-
NK6630/6680/6681 - 3G+EDGE+PTT+Smart
Pana X700/800 - smart
Moto A1000 - 3G+Smart
O2 XphoneII - smart
Samsung small-size 3G (forgot model)
|
mustafabay
Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Egypt
PM |
@mib
I think the discussion that smartphones are great and regular phones can't be cutting edge is useless. I find that people don't know what a smartphone is even if they have one in their hands. People generally want a good phone and s60 are good not because they're smart, but they have a big screen. And for apps all they seem to want is an app to record unlimited video. My dad's friend was asking me what phone to get as he sold his 7250 out of boredom and had borrowed his brother's 6670. He loved the phone but didn't know what to buy. I suggested a P800 or a K700 for budget reasons and since he didn't want a 6600 or 3660 because everyone else has one. When trying to explain the differences between the phones I mentioned the phone he was using was a smartphone he said, what's a smartphone? I know this is one example but here in Egypt its true for alot of people they don't know what a smartphone is they just buy the phone that is nicer to use. Also the reason why SE doesn't sell well isn't its bad phones but because we have the worst SE dealer in the world. Very few adds very high prices, don't know of software updates and the list goes on. But feature-wise SE phones have everything the average joe has out of the box, where as s60 you need an app to do something. |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
PM, WWW
|
@mib, why should we accept that smartphones are the only definition of smart phone just because you say so |
whizkidd
Joined: May 14, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: India
PM, WWW
|
Atleast in India, the younger generation knows what smartphones are and how to use them to the fullest whichi is why S60 are such an attractive proposition. I would any day prefer a 6680 to the K750, if they both cost the same.
This message was posted from a T230 |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
PM, WWW
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-22 04:02:03, mib1800 wrote:
Geez...maybe that's where our misunderstanding lies. I believe my intention was not to debate, I quote "...by a large cross-section of the populace". I thought we have agreed very early on that a large section (low to midrange) of the buying population have no use of functions beyond the basic or maybe basic+camera.
|
|
Read my post again, it has nothing to do with low to mid-range handsets. I am making reference to a broad sweep of the population as customers for smartphones e.g. not exclusively business executives. Worded differently; can you show that a wide range of people are buying smartphones when the empirical evidence shows that they are not?
Quote:
|
I always thought we r debating the higher-end where K750 is positioned.
|
|
We are.
Quote:
|
If your point is that K750 is just a mid-range phone (i.e. with prices considerably less than s60) or your argument is based on the WHOLE phone market, then then you can throw this debate out of the window.
|
|
As I said above, this isn't the case.
P.S. I included a little statistic in my last post for you. You could have at least said thank you!  (Just my wee jape )
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
dave_uk
Joined: Mar 06, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: London, UK
PM |
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-22 10:31:49, mib1800 wrote:
goldenface:
I think u hv missed out the following from my view.
"If K750/K600/W800 is leading edge, then how would you describe the following:-
NK6630/6680/6681 - 3G+EDGE+PTT+Smart
Pana X700/800 - smart
Moto A1000 - 3G+Smart
O2 XphoneII - smart
Samsung small-size 3G (forgot model)
|
|
Nokias - 6680 looks a nice handset with good specs but if you seriously expect a similar price point to the K750i then you are dreaming. The only aspect of the K750 that might cause the prices to be comparable is the 2MP camera (as we know 1.3MP camphones were v. expensive when first released as the cam technology seems to be expensive to implement). Also, the 6680 may support EDGE and PTT, however they are both gap-bridging technologies that are not supported by networks in a large number of countries/markets (indlucing the UK, where there is no EDGE and only Orange offer any sort of PTT, which is overpriced rubbish that is not used - maybe the reason why SE hasn't implemented them so widely in it's handsets - a more realistic approach to development.
Panasonic/Xphone/Samsung - sorry to pick but the fact that you can't remember the Samsung model number says it all (Z700?). These handsets do not sell, certainly not in the UK market. This is evidence against your argument, and you don't seem to have been listening before, as this point has already been made. A UI doesn't make a handset and here is the proof of the pudding. If ever there was a clearer representation that people don't buy Nokias for S60, this is it!
Motorola A1000 - not a bad handset, but it's UIQ, and is basically a 3G, plasticky P series, with a MP cam. Hardly an original concept - I believe that was SE's. And the fact that it's exclusive to "3", means that UMTS is basically irrelevant unless you want ot browse very very fast.....around "3"'s ringfenced content!
All in all, I'm still, after god knows how many pages, struggling to understand the point that you're trying to make. But I have no doubt that you'll continue trying to make it, so it should be interesting (or not).
| |
|
Access the forum with a mobile phone via esato.mobi
|
Posted: 2005-03-21 03:10
