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Dj Boyi
Joined: Oct 05, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Liberty City
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On 2004-04-13 00:27:23, richy240 wrote:
By the way, I called you an evil bastard for dramatic effect. You shouldn't take things so personally.
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This is Esato,not Hollwood! 
And im not angry 
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richy240
Joined: Jan 24, 2003
Posts: 465
From: Houston, Texas, USA
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boyi wrote:
This is Esato,not Hollwood!
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Good point.
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Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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I think you have the ask the question does all this heavy-handedness in Iraq really work? All it will do is turn 'moderate' Moslems against the US and UK, and create more suicide bombers and mean more foreign fighters entering Iraq spoling for a fight with coalition troops! Israel have been trying that approach for years, and it doesn't appear to be working!
I guess we need some kind of 'third way', but what would that be? Going in as we have done seems to be causing more problems than it's solving, and of course doing absolutely nothing's not an option.
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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richy240
Joined: Jan 24, 2003
Posts: 465
From: Houston, Texas, USA
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A point-by-point rebuttal for the benefit of boyi, who cannot seem to allow other people to have an opionion which differs from his:
Regarding "The individuals (except the decision makers, of course) have families and friends and jobs etc.": This is a mixture of two completely unrelated thoughts. (Well, related, but not enough to be part of the same sentence.) The individuals I am talking about are servicemen and contractors. The decision makers are the President, Congress, etc. I was trying to express that the individuals involved in the war (whom are there beyond their control) are not necessarily there because they believe they are doing the right thing. I should have expressed this more clearly I guess. That is completely my fault.
Regarding "I know nothing about any Czech journalists. At this point does it matter WHY they are being held?": Does it matter WHY they are being held? Really? I think not. I think what matters most is that they ARE BEING held, and when they might be RELEASED. Do you think the Czech families are sitting around, crying, thinking to themselves, "Why is my family member being held?" HELL NO! They are more likely thinking, "Shit! I hope my family member makes it home alive and safe."
Regarding "Ultimately it is because the US government decided to invade Iraq.": I shouldn't have to explain this one. I think you're just being stubborn. No other nation decided to invade Iraq. The United States decided this, and gained support from other nations. I don't know how someone could possibly dispute this... Nor do I understand what Iraq has to do with the IRA or any other radical mailitant group. The Iraq invasion was not to thwart terrorism, but to rid Saddam Hussein of WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction). Unfortunately, these alleged WMD have not yet been found. As far as I am concerned, G.W. Bush KNEW that these WMD did not exist, therefore lying to the US and the WORLD for political and personal gain.
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Dj Boyi
Joined: Oct 05, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Liberty City
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So it took you nearly 24 hrs to come up with that little lot,oh well.And as for Bush KNEW there were no WMD,how do you know that,did he tell you?
And remember that Bin Laden had a training camp in northern Iraq before the allies went in,wtf do you wanna do,give him the whole country?
Btw,the UK invaded Iraq with the US,or did you forget that?
Troops having no choice? Ever heard of AWOL?
And finally,if you spoke out like you do if you were an Iraqi when Saddam invaded Kuwait............you would'nt be venting your anger so much as you'd be shittin it in case you had a knock on your door by Saddams henchmen! Bye Bye richy240  And your misses (if you have one) would've been raped too!
Glad your American? Of course you are 
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[ This Message was edited by: boyi on 2004-04-13 23:34 ] |
BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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Bin laden was paid by the cia under the russian invasion in afganistan. Millions of usd, which the al kaida gave the chance to get weapons and learn the way how to use inteligence handlings, secret informations, spying etc. But who is behind him now? Not bin laden is the enemy anymore, its a faith, a kind of theory. And this cannot be fight by weapons.
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richy240
Joined: Jan 24, 2003
Posts: 465
From: Houston, Texas, USA
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@boyi
What does 24 hours have to do with anything. I apologize, but I've got better things to do (like make a living) than to sit here and argue American foreign policy with someone who ISN'T EVEN AMERICAN!
I think at this point you are grasping to any sort of argument you can come up with. Your points, now, are simply overstated attempts at crushing my logic.
boyi, I have said my piece. And you have said yours, but I imagine that isn't the last we will hear from you. You will most certainly claim that my retreat is your win and blah, blah, blah. (By the way, is the UK running the operations in Iraq? Have they ever?)
Get over it. No one cares about your opinion, as they probably do not care about mine. You've run this into the ground and killed any chance we had at intellectual conversation by refuting anything and everything I have said.
For that I thank you. You've done a great justice to everyone here, just as G.W. Bush is doing in Iraq, obviously.
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[ This Message was edited by: richy240 on 2004-04-14 15:14 ]
[ This Message was edited by: richy240 on 2004-04-14 16:32 ] |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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@Richy240 -
I agree with your very intelligently put rebuttal earlier in this thread, can I just make one observation:
"(By the way, is the UK running the operations in Iraq? Have they ever?) "
I wonder if it would be better if the UK WAS running the operations in Iraq? From what i can gather the insurgency and violence that happened in Basra was quelled when we negotiated with these gunmen, and both sides made withdrawals from Basra - and there has been nothing really heard of it since, whilst area like Faluja and Najaf appear to be as violent as ever - perhaps the US are still being a bit 'gung ho', and need to stop shooting things for more than five seconds?
I could be wrong mind (it happens frequently!  ) - it appears that many of these extremists are bought up to hate the US and what it stands for, so could it be simply blind hate?
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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batesie
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: London, UK
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bush. 'invading' iraq. his intentions were simple. the oil. bush was paid millions by esso (exxon mobil) before getting into power. as well as ditching the kyoto protocol since, to essos benfit, iraq has the biggest known supplies of untouched oil in the world. who uses the most oil in the world? america. www(dot)stopesso(dot)com
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richy240
Joined: Jan 24, 2003
Posts: 465
From: Houston, Texas, USA
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@Sammy_boy
I don't think so. Certainly there are those that hate Western Culture without reason, kind of like there are Whites that hate Blacks without reason. Hate is definately bread, but in this case I think there is something else at work here.
In the April 12, 2004 edition of The Nation (http://www.thenation.com), there is an article about this very issue. It claims that many Iraqis hate Americans for what they have done AFTER the war itself. That is, as part of the rebuilding process, Americans have rebuilt the anger and frustration of the Iraqi people.
I only skimmed through the article; I have not yet read it in detail, but the implications are very interesting. It makes mention of a newspaper that was in production at one time. Now this specific media is now disallowed from production because is allegedly propagates hate towards the Americans stationed in Iraq. (Operation Iraqi Freedom? What happened to freedom of speech ad press? I guess Iraqis don't have a right to express themselves.) In addition, even after the supposed June 30th turn-over of power to the Iraqis, America will keep control over the military, the media and the utility infrastructure (electricity, etc.) in Iraq. Of course the US will not take responsibility for healthcare and other related services that the Iraqis need just as badly as anything else - maybe worse!
Personally, I think if the UK were in charge of the military force in Iraq we would see a difference. I cannot venture to say what this difference would be because I know very little about Britain's foreign policies. But I definately think we would see a difference. (Maybe there wouldn't even be a war... I never saw Tony Blair on television preaching death to Saddam.)
@batesie
I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.
@boyi
Are you done being brainwashed yet? This is getting interesting, no?
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[ This Message was edited by: richy240 on 2004-04-14 17:01 ] |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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@Richy240:
Sounds like an interesting article re. why the Iraqis hate the US!
And you do have to wonder about the impartiality of the government that the US will leave behind - will it be one chosen by the iraqi people? or will it just be a 'puppet' government doing everything the US says? Maybe this is so the US can get a toehold into OPEC, who have a tendency to put oil prices up and disrupt the natural supply and demand and keep prices at an artificial level. This has implications in the uk, where a litre of petrol costs nigh on 80p, which I think is something like $1.20-$1.30, but I digress. If all this is just so the US can get itself into OPEC, it's rather an extreme step to take! Although I do think that all this is to do with more than just simply oil....
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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richy240
Joined: Jan 24, 2003
Posts: 465
From: Houston, Texas, USA
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@Sammy_boy
Actually, the article I sited makes mention of that also: The newly formed government in Iraq is made up of APPOINTED leaders. These leaders are appointed by the US Government... Surely there isn't a conflict of interest there, eh?
Of course, you'll never hear any of this shit I am saying on/in major news sources. CNN, MSNBC, etc. all have political agendas. (That is why The Nation and other like-minded, privately-owned publications are good to have around.) They filter/alter information as they see fit to mold the minds of the American public (I never saw so many people ready to overthrow a government and kill a national identity; as I stated before, Americans are blood-thirsty) and to please the politicians who give them tax breaks and other related benefits. It is all about money and power. (At this day in age, what isn't? Sad, isn't it?)
Oh well... Until there are more people who can bring themselves think, rather than have their government/television do it for them, this will continue. And until George W. Bush and the like are either elected or impeached from office, we'll have a bunch of evil bastards ruling the US and f**king shit up in other countries around the world.
"KILL FOR OIL! KILL FOR OIL! REELECT GEORGE W. BUSH AND KILL FOR OIL!"
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richy240
Joined: Jan 24, 2003
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From: Houston, Texas, USA
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I think it is also very important to mention that the information that the large news networks obtain from the US government is already very altered. Americans are only as informed as the American politicians allow them to be, which makes every argument of mine only somewhat valid.
Of course, I have the capacity to think for myself. Unlike many Americans (or people in general), I have MY OWN opinion. I do not let CNN/MSNBC/CNBC/FOX NEWS tell me what to think.
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Dj Boyi
Joined: Oct 05, 2002
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From: Liberty City
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On 2004-04-14 18:28:35, richy240 wrote:
@Sammy_boy
Actually, the article I sited makes mention of that also: The newly formed government in Iraq is made up of APPOINTED leaders. These leaders are appointed by the US Government... Surely there isn't a conflict of interest there, eh?
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I dont know why i bother to reply but this will be my last,unless you call me an evil bastard again
These appointed leaders wont be there forever! If you had bothered to watch Bush's speech last night you would have heard him say that there would be an entire Iraqi goverment by the end of 2005.
These things take time,and in time the UN will be in Iraq,thats where the majority of Americans will be leaving it for us Europeans to deal with,security issues,etc.
America's next mission will be North Korea,the country that does'nt allow 99% of the population to own a mobile phone (i saw a documentary about it on the BBC). |
richy240
Joined: Jan 24, 2003
Posts: 465
From: Houston, Texas, USA
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@boyi
You're right, I didn't watch the press conference, but I did see some clips on the news this morning. I wanted to punch that bastard in the face. He always has a shitty grin on his face, as if he is mocking the American public. I truely dislike that man.
Did Pres. Bush mention that the US government is building 12 military bases throughout Iraq that will endure the next 10 to 20 years? Are those going to be given to the Iraqi people at the end of 2005? I think not. I think the American military will keep a presence there for years to come.
Don't even get me started on Korea. Isn't it strange that Bush went after Iraq first, on SUSPICION of possession of nuclear and biological weapons when Korea ADMITTED that they were engaged in weapons testing and ACTUALLY TESTED one of these weapons off the coast of Japan? Don't you find it odd that Bush went after an oil-rich state before he went after a poorer state which has no large oil reserves, therefore nothing to benefit the US? Don't you find it strange that Bush is an oil man? His business is oil, as is his father's! Isn't this strange to you, or do you choose to ignore the obvious cooincidence (<-- spelling?) at work here?
You're as bad as any and every ignorant American preaching about nuclear weapons in Iraq... Let me tell you something: THEY WERE NEVER FOUND. NEVER! THERE ARE NO NUCLEAR OR BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS IN IRAQ (unless the US brought them). YOU WERE LIED TO!!! Can't you accept the fact that our leaders lie to get their way? Can't you understand that Bush is stealing the resources and lives of the American people for his own benefit?
I can't believe you are so blind. Really.
Interesting Link: http://www.jointhebushwhacker[....]ction/outrageFullStory/ci_ID/9
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[ This Message was edited by: richy240 on 2004-04-14 18:12 ] | |
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Posted: 2004-04-13 00:31
