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The Future of SE's Java Platform |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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On 2007-12-09 05:56:03, islandprd wrote:
@mib1800
oh com'on man, as a user of both brands I must say each has its strong points but neither is perfect. To critisize SE as if it is the crappiest without ever deeply using it is not very right too.
When and where did I say SE is crap?  I am only responding to persons who are saying Java is as good as Symbian. Get your facts right. 
The java programs I use in my SE set are mostly 2D game and some light application like world clock. The good part, mostly are available as freewares unlike symbian which you must donate or pay dearly for a programs that are not even perfect. To me the java is good enough and surely some other people may find it the same.
Java is good for these small little utilities apps. But for for complex and integrated apps, Java is still not there yet.
btw: I can have the same freeware java apps that you have on your SE running in my Symbian N95 as well. But this is not true the other way round. So my Symbian phones can have best of both worlds (so to speak).
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islandprd
Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 176
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Oh well I say "as if" but never mind then
But you are right to say that some of the java programs works on symbian. Not all. Some of my SE java games cannot run on my N95. |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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On 2007-12-09 06:59:11, islandprd wrote:
But you are right to say that some of the java programs works on symbian. Not all. Some of my SE java games cannot run on my N95.
ditto. Not all Java that works in N95 works in SE.
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masseur
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Sydney, London
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in the last couple of years or so I am finding that java software is is much more compatible such that most work on the SE's I have, the WM's I have and also the N95 when I had it.
I think this is more of an issue of the quality and skill of the developer although obviously if API's are used that are not supported then the program also won't work
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NightBlade
Joined: Jul 29, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: Nessebar, Bulgaria
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@Dogmann:
There are so many Symbian phones sold mainly because Nokia includes Symbian in every new phone. The rest of my reply is the same as islandprd's.
@mib1800:
You're lying to yourself, mate. Saying that Nokia's UI is better than SE's is ridiculous (as I've said before).
And yes, I am in that 90%.
[ This Message was edited by: NightBlade on 2007-12-09 08:58 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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On 2007-12-09 09:58:16, NightBlade wrote:
@Dogmann:
There are so many Symbian phones sold mainly because Nokia includes Symbian in every new phone. The rest of my reply is the same as islandprd's.
@mib1800:
You're lying to yourself, mate. Saying that Nokia's UI is better than SE's is ridiculous (as I've said before).
And yes, I am in that 90%.
[ This Message was edited by: NightBlade on 2007-12-09 08:58 ]
If you are game enough, counter the 9 points I posted about the inconsistency and unfriendliness of SE UI compared to S60. Do away with your cheap talk and come out from behind the stone.
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QVGA
Joined: May 23, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Pakistan
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On 2007-12-09 00:19:22, NightBlade wrote:
On 2007-12-08 11:57:01, QVGA wrote:
On 2007-12-08 09:55:13, NightBlade wrote:
Yay! I hate them Symbian and WM OS'es. Too complicated and not as straightforward and good-looking as Java.
too complicated for someone like you, not the other billion population that uses WM and symbian phones.
Whilst java maybe progressing, it will NEVER be an complex and open ended as an OS, otherwise we're talking about WM and symbian becoming endangered!
Through elaborate programming, of course it can! It would be harder but not impossible by all means.
Oh, and just to make things clear, most people want good-looking and organized GUI's, unlike Nokia's.Well, OK, you're right, maybe a good 10% of the cell-phone using population does care about installing anything else than games.
we're talking about people here who know about phones, not those who dont know ****! (that includes people who only install games).
And if Nokia menu is disorganised, then you can move stuff which ever way you like, can you do that in SE by a simple click of a button?
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QVGA
Joined: May 23, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Pakistan
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On 2007-12-09 09:58:16, NightBlade wrote:
@Dogmann:
There are so many Symbian phones sold mainly because Nokia includes Symbian in every new phone. The rest of my reply is the same as islandprd's.
[ This Message was edited by: NightBlade on 2007-12-09 08:58 ]
hahaha, u joker! thats a real funny thing (in a sad pathetic way) you just said! |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@islandprd
Sorry you explanation does not explain the continued growth currently seen in Symbian devices and they aren't all Nokia's either. There are plenty of Nokia devices that are not Symbian or smart phones and even if they all were this still wouldn't account for the growth being seen.
@Nightblade
What are you talking about only the Nokia N series and E series are Symbian devices all the others are not and are not smart phones either. This incredible growth is being seen in smart phones and IMO in Multimedia smart phones. Buisness smart phones have always had a niche market with Buisness people as these are the people that need that functionality the most. The huge growth currently is coming from a new type of user that is looking for an excellent Multimedia experience and gets it by using a Symbian Multimedia smart phone to suggest otherwise is just not true.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-09 12:56 ] |
islandprd
Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 176
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@dogmann
Being a market leader Nokia certainly has a clear advantage of pulling more buyers/followers. It has to do with brand presence, perception etc. Does it guarantee a best product line? No necessarily. For example, B&O products. It may not be a market leader but certain of its product are good and maybe better than the leader. IMHO
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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IN reply to some statements:
1. my understanding is that JAVA runs on it's own chip. I don't know why this would change with K850. The reason you can run java apps running beside phone functions is because they are running on their own chip. Likewise the music player can run while you access phone functions, or while using the camera (also on it's own chip). Since A100 and A200 are not multi-tasking os's they achieve multitasking only for functions that run on separate chips ie not in the main processor. Java itself IS mult-task capable so you can run up to 8 java programs at once.
2. Since java is it's own chip, if it crashes you phone does not. However badly written apps can sometimes cause problems for the phone when they access hardware external to the JVM. Just as with s60, we can't blame Nokia or SE for poor application development.
3. Any crashing issues related to K850 are not JVM issues. The K850 doesn't use a JAVA Menu, java is for applications only. So crashing of K850 or menu slowness are other issues not related to the JVM.
4. 3D apps are indeed better for Nokia which has had the benefit of N Gage development. Java will catch up.
5. JP8 has not brought an increase in boot time. There is a misunderstanding floating around at the moment that the term JP8 refers to the menu and os of the phone. JP8 refers ONLY to the version of the JVM, not to the phone menu or os. The JVM itself runs as a separate hardware function and has no affect on menu or phone performance. It has it's own memory heap and even with 8 java apps running phone performance is not affected. I repeat K850 issues are NOT related to the JVM. They are more likely related to the new A200 OS version.
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@Max
Well that was quite enlightening as i don't pretend to know a lot about Java as i really have very little interest in it.
So from what you saying all the problems with the K850 and W910 are not Java related but down to the new A200 platform which i must be honest is then even more worrying.
Seeing as it was so long in development does this mean yet again SE have managed to launch an unready OS on it paying customers without sufficient testing and bug fixing prior to launch. As that is what it looks like to me and if so sucks big time.
Marc
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Nokia N95 8GB, SU-8W, Fring, Vox, Tom Tom 6, Shure EC2g
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-10 01:16 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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well you can look at it as more worrying if you like, but to me it indicates that it's just because A200 is so new, which means it will only get better.
As you know, I don't expect, nor get frustrated by, OEM's failing to get it right on first releases.
tbh, Nokia do the same thing, though they haven't had as bad examples as the P990 and K850. But they are only two instances of poor readiness. You yourself have admited that until s60 3rd edition Nokia have had issues with stability. You have used this to counter my argument in the past that based on the N70 Nokia os is unstable. I have accepted your argument and now expect better things of s60 3rd edition. Also the recent memory improvements in s60 (demand paging etc) all look very good but how long has it taken Nokia to come up with this? Until s60 3rd edition, it wasn't the UI that put me off but the stablity. Now it's just the UI Why was s60 so crash worthy for so long? Why did it take Nokia all that time to come up with the stability? Honestly I wouldn't have used the N70 for any kind of lengthy period, it would have irritated me no end. The lady I bought it off virtually gave it to me she was so sick of it. She kept her SE K610 instead, even asking me to replace the screen of the K610 which she broken.
Anyway, I'm not trying to take away from your frustration with SE, but personally I still can't accept that SE are so much worse than any other OEM. They ALL use us as guinea pigs, and the more we want the latest and greatest NOW, the more like guinea pigs we become.
Microsoft are the king of this, look at Vista anyone? Or the issues that Windows 95 had on it's first release. But I'm not gonna stop buying Windows. I like windows, but I'm realistic and never pay money for a new version of Windows OS, I ALWAYS wait 6-12 months.
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-12-10 02:22 ] |
shyam335
Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: 127.0.0.1
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AFAIK there is no 'chip' for java,unless you mean something like jazelle,still it occupies only a part of the microprocessor or 'chip'.
Java does not make the phone crash because it runs on something like a sandbox (advantage of VM really).
Im pretty sure there number of apps that can be run simultaneously is >8 for a100,Its the capability of VM that enables the multiple java applications hat run simultaneously.
There are a terrible lot of lies going around the world, and the worst of it is half of them are true - Winston Churchill
We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us - Winston Churchill |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@max_wedge
Well in June 2006 i was introduced to S60 via the N70 and i never found it that bad stability wise just a little slow but moved to a N73 pretty fast but as you say that's a whole other story.
As for Vista i really don't get what some moan about i have had it since February on a Core Duo2 Toshiba Laptop and have zero problems with it, even PC suites that are notoriously flaky have all worked without a hitch. Mind you i think more people like to slate Microsoft then do even Nokia both of which in my experience is usually unfounded.
Marc
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Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-10 05:01 ] |
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Posted: 2007-12-09 06:24
