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Visual communication like never before with the Sony Ericsson Satio |
apolloa
Joined: Jul 27, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Dorset, UK
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On 2009-06-03 21:36:22, goldenface wrote:
@apolloa
 Don't get upset mate, its frustrating I know. Its really not worth discussing what the lens may or may not be until we see the final version and know for sure.
 I know, it's all just speculation but sometimes I do wonder about peoples common sense.
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synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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And let's not forget - the Exmor sensor is 12.25mp. The Satio (and Idou before it) have consistently claimed 12.1mp. The maths here isn't difficult - those are two different numbers.
Ummm.... No.
Check out any decent digicam review and scroll through the spec list. There's something called available megapixels and then there's another one called effective megapixels.
Available megapixels always > effective megapixels.
I could explain the whole thing, but it would be totally out of topic for this thread. In any case, as mentioned several times by now; it makes no sense to discuss such matters before the phone is actually out. |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
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On 2009-06-04 02:31:51, synn wrote:
Check out any decent digicam review and scroll through the spec list. There's something called available megapixels and then there's another one called effective megapixels.
Available megapixels always > effective megapixels.
I could explain the whole thing, but it would be totally out of topic for this thread. In any case, as mentioned several times by now; it makes no sense to discuss such matters before the phone is actually out.
Don't you bother to read Apolloa's links either?
Type 1/2.5 12.25 effective megapixels
CMOS Image sensor "IMX060PQ" Mar, 2009
In other words, 12.25 is the number that anyone using that Exmor module would use. Available pixels may well be higher, but neither the effective nor available pixels on this Exmor equal 12.1.
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synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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Again, that wouldn't make an ounce of difference if the hardware platform is capable of resolving only 12.1 pixels.
For christ's sake, please hold off such speculations/ discussions until the phone actually hits the market! |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
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Did anyone see where that dummy went?
On 2009-06-03 18:53:35, apolloa wrote:
Just tread what your saying, you make absolutely NO sense, in one line your telling use Sony Ericsson is 50% SONY and 50% Ericsson, then in the next line telling us Sony has NOTHING to with the company??
Actually I think you need to read it again, because you still haven't understood it - Sony Ericsson is a separate company which is 50% owned by Sony, and 50% by Ericsson. Those are the facts - what part doesn't make sense? I have *never* said Sony had nothing to do with SE, I'm just making the factual point that they are not SE's sole lords and masters, and they are not the same company as SE either.
I'll tell you what, if ANY of you can provide 100% accurate proof from Sony themselves that the Satio does NOT use Exmore I'll believe you, until then my point stands more then your's as I have provided more facts to INDICATE that Exmore is SONY'S product which a few pages back some of you didn't believe either
Firstly, it's impossible to prove a negative, and nobody is able to prove anything until or unless SE or Sony make some kind of statement (or somebody physically takes the phone apart and shows us the module). But nevertheless, here are some pretty salient facts once again -
1. The Satio was first demonstrated (as the idou) a full month BEFORE the Exmor was released to manufacturers, and had clearly been in development several months before that.
2. The Emor boasts 12.25 effective MP, the Satio only 12.1. Yes, that could be a limitation of the Satio's hardware platform, but then if that's the case, why the hoopla over the Exmor sensor at all if the Satio's hardware can't justify it? Isn't it more likely the Satio just uses a 12.1MP sensor that SE were able to source more easily elsewhere?
3. Let's drum that point home again - Sony Ericsson and Sony are two different companies working to two different aims. SE's sole aim as a company is to make as much profit as possible for both Sony and Ericsson shareholders, meaning they can't just base everything around what's best for Sony. If for any reason it's not practical/possible/beneficial to SE's bottom line to use an Exmor in the Satio they won't use it.
On 2009-06-04 11:28:03, synn wrote:
For christ's sake, please hold off such speculations/ discussions until the phone actually hits the market!
It's a discussion forum, deal with it 
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2009-06-04 12:17 ] |
synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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lol, no need to be passive aggressive and then mask it with a smiley, dude. You ARE shooting at shadows and I just pointed it out.
The difference between 12.25MP and 12.1MP is so minute, you sill only notice it in pixel dimensions. There's no harm in using a sensor of the former capacity in a platform that supports the latter. A disparity of a few megapixels? We're talking.
SE and Sony may be 2 different companies, but Sony wouldn't develop, let alone mass produce a camera phone-centric part without consulting their JV and largest client. Not unless they have an assured order for a minimum number of units from another client (Like how they make sensors for Nikon for use in their DSLRs). Common business logic dictates it. It's not about SE doing what's best for Sony. It's the other way around. You've got the priorities all wrong there. |
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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@boiing. I was under the impression that SE wasn't a company but a JV. Isn't there a difference?
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anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
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On 2009-06-04 13:27:03, goldenface wrote:
@boiing. I was under the impression that SE wasn't a company but a JV. Isn't there a difference?
Not really - joint ventures can be formed in different ways, perhaps as partnership or some other looser arrangement, but in SE's case it's a company in its own right, legally distinct from both Sony and Ericsson.
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anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
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On 2009-06-04 13:26:46, synn wrote:
The difference between 12.25MP and 12.1MP is so minute, you sill only notice it in pixel dimensions. There's no harm in using a sensor of the former capacity in a platform that supports the latter. A disparity of a few megapixels? We're talking.
But that's the point - the difference is so small, nobody really cares or would even notice, so why wouldn't you use the higher number in your marketing? If the sensor in the Satio was the 12.25MP Exmor, SE would be perfectly justified in writing 12.25MP on the box, and have already distinguished their camera from the paltry 12.1MP Pixon that Samsung are about to push out. Why haven't they?
Incidentally, who's making the sensor in that Pixon12, which also boasts exactly 12.1MP and is coming out earlier than the Satio?
SE and Sony may be 2 different companies, but Sony wouldn't develop, let alone mass produce a camera phone-centric part without consulting their JV and largest client. Not unless they have an assured order for a minimum number of units from another client (Like how they make sensors for Nikon for use in their DSLRs). Common business logic dictates it. It's not about SE doing what's best for Sony. It's the other way around. You've got the priorities all wrong there.
The fact that the Exmor isn't in the Satio doesn't mean that the Exmor isn't going to be in any number of other SE phones in the future, or indeed in a billion LG's, HTC's, Samsungs, or whatever else.
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2009-06-04 13:31 ] |
se_dude
Joined: Nov 07, 2007
Posts: > 500
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^^Do you have any proof that the Sartio doesnt have an Exmor?? The C905 had an exmor and SE didnt release any model numbe for it. With Sony getting more involved in evrything here, i would expect Sony to specifically deliver a module for Satio. |
synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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On 2009-06-04 14:29:19, Boinng wrote:
But that's the point - the difference is so small, nobody really cares or would even notice, so why wouldn't you use the higher number in your marketing? If the sensor in the Satio was the 12.25MP Exmor, SE would be perfectly justified in writing 12.25MP on the box, and have already distinguished their camera from the paltry 12.1MP Pixon that Samsung are about to push out. Why haven't they?
Because the device only takes images upto the smaller number, perhaps? Re-read the point about the hardware limitation. For the umpteenth time, this is too damn early to speculate on this matter!
On 2009-06-04 14:29:19, Boinng wrote:
Incidentally, who's making the sensor in that Pixon12, which also boasts exactly 12.1MP and is coming out earlier than the Satio?
Samsung makes CMOS's too, you know?
On 2009-06-04 14:29:19, Boinng wrote:
The fact that the Exmor isn't in the Satio doesn't mean that the Exmor isn't going to be in any number of other SE phones in the future, or indeed in a billion LG's, HTC's, Samsungs, or whatever else.
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2009-06-04 13:31 ]
That's not a fact, that's your opinion. You don't have a cross section of the Satio to back that claim up. When you do, I'll pay heed. Fair enough?
BTW, "EXMOR" is only a brandname Sony uses for their sensors. The lack of branding doesn't necessarily mean the sensor isn't made by Sony or is an inferior version.
Sony sells 10MP CCDs to Nikon, uses the same in the Alpha200 with minor changes and calls it Exmor. |
Dups!
Joined: Sep 24, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: GMT +2
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I have to agree with waiting till the phone is released before arguing over the camera.
If I remember well the C905 had its module changed just before launch after it was announced with a different one, so, changes can and do take place some times. |
Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Toronto, Ontario
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@Boingg, best post I've read from you in a long time - well put precise and slices!
I just hope with all this camera talk ppl are not buying the Satio just cause of the camera!! It IS a VERY capable smartphone and multimedia device too you know.
|AppleTV2|iPhone 12Mini 256GB|iPad Pro 256GB| Previously ...  K750|Z500|Z520|K700|K790i|K850i, :Ericsson: T18z|T28World|T36m x3|T68m (Ericsson, not the rebranded T68i). |
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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I agree. Its not just a camphone.
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rss_ndrsn
Joined: Aug 27, 2005
Posts: > 500
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On 2009-06-03 15:57:03, jmcomms wrote:
Satio is obviously (well, hopefully) the first of a number of Symbian devices to come - so you can't expect it to do everything. SE will learn from this by seeing the feedback and monitoring sales. Will the next one come with a keyboard, slide-out keypad, different buttons, more buttons, different controls on the side..? Some people do seem to think that the flagship model will be the last phone ever made; complete perfection. These people will always be somewhat disappointed in life!!
[ This Message was edited by: jmcomms on 2009-06-03 15:02 ]
I do not think about the flagship phone that way. Flagship phone is what I anticipate most from a cell phone manufacturer. I expect it to have top notch features for its time and a cool design. In Satio case, it is the first that I can consider a true high-end or flagship after three years from Sony Ericsson. Yes, many people expected it to surpass other offerings from Nokia, Samsung and Apple, including me. It actually did when the Idou concept was announced (which later changed to Satio); it took everyone by surprise. But when SE finally announced the complete specification of the phone and its new name, I was, like some of the people here, disappointed. Why? Of all the SE phones, Satio does not have built-in 3.5mm jack. The video recording is only VGA at 3Ofps and in H.263 format. Other features of the symbian phone is mediocre.
I know many forumers here at Esato would say that it has been argued few times before whether 3.5mm jack is essential or not but let's take a look at Iphone. Does anyone here think that the built-in 3.5mm jack contributed to the Iphone success? I do. Aside from the cool touch interface, 3.5mm jack is part of the success because one of Iphone selling point is the inclusion of Ipod capabilities. Ipod of course has the headset jack built in. Music experience in Ipod and Iphone would not be the same without the headset jack built-in. Apple is wise enough not to do what SE is doing: using an 3.5mm adapter. Having 3.5mm headset jack built-in on a music player makes listening to music simpler; the dongle just makes it uncomfortable. Although answering incoming calls while using the built-in head jack is not possible owing to the lack of microphone on the headset, still what are the chances of recieving a call on the phone while using the music player application? Probably, one in a thousand. Besides, people can always remove the headset, and hold their phone against their ears or SE can make a high quality earphone with mic. Using a bluetooth headset may seem to be quite a solution to this little problem but it consumes much power than just using the an ordinary headset. The cellphone battery nowadays does not seem to last, and the latest bluetooth still uses power quite much. I am aware that the wireless headsets will sooner or later replace the traditional wired headset but until that day, I hope SE have the 3.5mm jack built-in in their high-end phones.
Another thing that I got disappointed at is the video recording. We all know that the Omap hardware of Satio is capable of recording at D1 (720x480 pixels) resolution but instead SE opted for VGA. I cannot understand why SE is limiting video recording capability of Satio. Would it very hard to make Satio record video at D1 resolution when technically speaking it is very able to do so? Also, why SE still use the H.263 format not H.264 in video coding? H.264 is higher in quality than the H.263 format. SE feature phones such as W800 supported the playback of H.264 first than the Symbian 60 phones back then. Now, SE has not made any phones yet that record videos in H.264 format. I actually expected that Satio would be able to record video at 720p at 30fps because it is equipped with 12 megapixel camera and Samsung OmniaHD records video at that resolution but then again SE chose VGA. I know that it is impossible to make Satio record at 720p but I hope SE increase its video recording capability to D1 plus add more fps option like 120 and 1/8.
Satio other features seem to be mediocre. The battery capacity is only 1000mAh which is lower compared to other phones with similar screen resolution that uses 1500mAh such as N97 and OmniaHD. Satio battery will surely drain faster; the screen resolution is VGA, twice the resolution of W995's screen, a phone that uses almost the same battery capacity. Also, the media manager does not seem to get upgraded much. It looks like the same as the on A200 interface. It would actually nice if SE made Satio's media manager resembles the W960's. Aside from the media manager and battery, the internal memomy is only 128mb. Although it comes with 8 gigabyte MicroSD card, I prefer to have bigger internal memory plus microSD slot. Furthermore, media go has to be used to transfer movies onto the phone wherein the OmniaHD can do it by drag and drop. Transfering movies without converting them should work flawlessy on Satio because it uses the powerful Omap 3430 cpu. In addition, Satio does not support divx and xivd movie format. LG Viewty, two year old feature phone, supports that format but why not Satio. Ironically, Satio is advertise for its movie playback but it does not support divx and xvid format. I just some Satio features will be more advanced.
The competition nowadays is really tough. I cannot even find any features of Satio that surpasses the offerings from other manufacturer. I know Satio is still far away from being complete, but for sure SE will not change the features much. I just hope that they put these comments into consideration. Some may find my petty sentiments as lame but they cannot deny the fact that there is truth in them. | |
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Posted: 2009-06-03 23:04
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