| Author |
SE failing in producing good phones? |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
PM |
On 2007-05-28 13:44:52, skylineR35 wrote:
The vast majority of Nokia s60 owners aren't buying a smartphone - they are buying a phone that happens to have a smartphone os. Because you tie "smartphone" and "nokia" so closely together you always assume Nokia success in the market proves hardscreen smartphones are the only kind preferred by the smartphone segment.
i got to fully agree into this extent...
cause some people do not know this part
But Nokia is not the only one making smartphone devices. There are a host of other manufacturers out there as well making hard screens devices. I am sure they did market research as well. Apparently these guys, to include SE have come up with different ideas about what appeals to the consumer market regarding screens. A TS might have been nice on the N95 in regards to navigation with the GPS but on the other hand I am quite speedy when it comes to navigating around the device.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? | |
|
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
PM, WWW
|
On 2007-05-28 14:58:33, sapporobaby wrote:
Actually they have two devices: the N800 and the N770 are both touch screens. THe N800 is great with it. Nokia can make it work and has proven it. The bigger thing is that I feel (my opinion) they do not see this as necessary.
Yes, but the N800 and N770 are linux devices both without GSM or 3G. These are not "mobile phones" in the traditional sense. They are more like a PocketPC PDA with wifi in terms of market positioning. Infact, to my way of thinking the N800 proves that Nokia is still interested in the touchscreen market, since they have accomodated the PDA market and at the same time shown that they accept the PDA market prefers touchscreens (otherwise why bother with the N800 touchscreen and linux?). The N800 hints to me that s60/s90 isn't able to cope with a touchscreen interface, but that Nokia are not fully committed yet to run a full GSM/3G capable version of linux. The N800 could simply be a technological practice run at linux and touchscreens.
They may be considering running Linux in a future PDA touchscreen mobile phones rather than symbian (which they have had a lot of trouble developing TS for).
It's my opinion that Nokia haven't dropped plans for TS in their mobile phones, and the N800/770 tend to confirm this in my view.
|
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
PM |
On 2007-05-28 03:49:29, max_wedge wrote:
It always seems that Nokia supporters argue that HSDPA and GPS are high-end requirements, yet they see the touch screen as a non-issue. Herein they reveal the flaw in the argument that Nokia more accurately fulfill high end requirements than SE - because they are judging "high end" only on what their own preference is in a high end phone. I (and many other phone users) consider a touchscreen as an explicit requirement of a high end phone, so from my perspective, Nokia have NO high end phones at all. 
The simplicity of your reasoning just made me laugh out loud. Great stuff!
No doubt when VGA 15-30fps recording appears in SE phones we will all be cooing here on Esato.
Wifi, gps are already in SE phones - just non - western ones.
I suspect contributors to this thread have their own idea of what a 'Good Phone' is.
A good phone to me is one that raised the bar in some way, carries out its tasks smoothly and successfully, was a great success for the company and in great demand.
The K800i was a hugely successful phone so that in my opinion is a great phone from SE.
Other people might think a great phone is simply one that packs high-end features - but get this - they have to work!. That, btw, was not a veiled attack on the N95! because it could also be applied to the P990i before now.
@mib_1800
THe problem is we dont see exploding demand for TS (in other words, TS dont inspire sales). But a GPS/5MP/VGA@30fps video rec/HSDPA do. Nobody would doubt N95 is high end and we know demand for N95 went thru the roof because of these factors. I wouldnt be surprise if N95 outsell P1 by 10 to 1.
Sorry, but I don't see any exploding demand for either HSDPA or GPS at the moment, these are still arguably only in demand to a niche sector.
_________________
The UK's Best Selling Phones
Esato around the World
P990i + BT30Q
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-29 08:39 ] |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
PM |
@max_wedge
Sorry but the N770 and now N800 are not intended to have GSM functionality they are Internet tablets that run over WiFi or connect to a phone via Bluetooth the N800 is however getting VOIP support.
Can we please not start this touchscreen v non touchscreen argument again as it really is not going to ever be resolved those that prefer a touchscreen get one those that don't won't it really is that simple and both have their advantages and disadvantages but only the individual user can decide what he wants or needs. There really is no absolute right or wrong choice on this and there never will be so arguing one is better than the other is pointless.
Marc
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-05-29 09:18 ] |
QVGA
Joined: May 23, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Pakistan
PM, WWW
|
@goldenface
a good phone raises a bar in someway and is a big seller? sorry but the later is just not a criteria for a good phone. 1100 is one of the best selling phones ever, is it a good phone? yeah for those who cant afford expensive ones.
the only reason why SE phones sell so much is because they are considerable cheaper than nokia phones or they become a lot cheaper in a couple of months time. |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
PM |
Best thread ever.
Damn, I hope Nokia and SE are paying attention.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
PM |
The N800 hints to me that s60/s90 isn't able to cope with a touchscreen interface, but that Nokia are not fully committed yet to run a full GSM/3G capable version of linux. The N800 could simply be a technological practice run at linux and touchscreens.
They may be considering running Linux in a future PDA touchscreen mobile phones rather than symbian (which they have had a lot of trouble developing TS for).
It's my opinion that Nokia haven't dropped plans for TS in their mobile phones, and the N800/770 tend to confirm this in my view.
Hey Max,
Good points but you are a bit off here mate. The S60 can run TS quite easily but as I said, Nokia does not see this as a truly viable market. Nokia has the juice to quickly and easily adapt their devices to whatever the market deems desirable. If SE can develop TS of UIQ, I am quite sure Nokia can develop it for S60. By the way, Nokia has combined S60 into their latest device, the E90. No more mixed interfaces of S40 and S60 on one platform. This could be a hint of things to come. SE on the other hand, and this is my opinion, is trying to differentiate by offering something Nokia does not have, i.e. TS on their consumer product phones. I say consumer because, once again my opinion, the Internet Tablets are not really consumer market devices. Also, the IT's are not PDA's as they perform Zero point Zero PDA functions. They are simply meant to access the Internet, via wifi, or a 3G enabled phone.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
MWEB
Joined: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: somewhere nicer than you
PM |
On 2007-05-29 10:35:17, sapporobaby wrote:
Best thread ever.
Damn, I hope Nokia and SE are paying attention.
Quite probable that they are, you might be surprised at how many "insiders" actualy browse and contribute to forums in an undercover fashion, easy to spot when you can see the domain name origin of posts.
|
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
PM |
On 2007-05-29 10:22:47, QVGA wrote:
@goldenface
a good phone raises a bar in someway and is a big seller? sorry but the later is just not a criteria for a good phone.
1100 is one of the best selling phones ever, is it a good phone? yeah for those who cant afford expensive ones.
Of course!!! The 1100 has sold bucketloads and it can be classed as a good phone. If it was a rubbish phone it wouldn't sell - unless there was no other choice for the consumer.
the only reason why SE phones sell so much is because they are considerable cheaper than nokia phones or they become a lot cheaper in a couple of months time.
What planet are you on??? Where is your evidence?
SE phones in general are much more expensive than Nokia phones - they have one of the highest average prices in the industry at around 140 euros.
"The average selling price of Sony Ericsson's handsets was slightly higher than expected at 146 euros, compared with 142 euros a year earlier and 147 euros in the third quarter."
source
Nokia phones have an average selling price of around 93
"The Finnish company said its market share rose to 36 percent in the quarter, but the average selling price (ASP) of its handsets fell to 93 euros, below all estimates in the poll, which ranged from 94 to 104 euros, with an average of 100 euros."
source
Now unless you can provide evidence to the contrary then we can put this point safely to bed.
My point is, if a phone does exactly what it says on the tin then it can be classed as a good phone. Its when the phone doesn't do what it is supposed to that it becomes a poor phone.
Admittedly, all manufacturers suffer from crashes and bugs as the phones they produce become more complex - I don't think every manufacturer of high-end phones is completely immune from this.
_________________
The UK's Best Selling Phones
Esato around the World
P990i + BT30Q
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-29 10:21 ] |
QVGA
Joined: May 23, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Pakistan
PM, WWW
|
On 2007-05-29 11:10:51, goldenface wrote:
On 2007-05-29 10:22:47, QVGA wrote:
@goldenface
a good phone raises a bar in someway and is a big seller? sorry but the later is just not a criteria for a good phone.
1100 is one of the best selling phones ever, is it a good phone? yeah for those who cant afford expensive ones.
Of course!!! The 1100 has sold bucketloads and it can be classed as a good phone. If it was a rubbish phone it wouldn't sell - unless there was no other choice for the consumer.
the only reason why SE phones sell so much is because they are considerable cheaper than nokia phones or they become a lot cheaper in a couple of months time.
What planet are you on??? Where is your evidence?
SE phones in general are much more expensive than Nokia phones - they have one of the highest average prices in the industry at around 140 euros.
"The average selling price of Sony Ericsson's handsets was slightly higher than expected at 146 euros, compared with 142 euros a year earlier and 147 euros in the third quarter."
source
Nokia phones have an average selling price of around 93
"The Finnish company said its market share rose to 36 percent in the quarter, but the average selling price (ASP) of its handsets fell to 93 euros, below all estimates in the poll, which ranged from 94 to 104 euros, with an average of 100 euros."
source
Now unless you can provide evidence to the contrary then we can put this point safely to bed.
_________________
The UK's Best Selling Phones
Esato around the World
P990i + BT30Q
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-29 10:12 ]
the evidence is the country where i live. P990 is one year or a little more old, it sells for 350 US $ here. Mean while, N91 which is far inferior in features sells for 450-500$ and its also one year old.
K750 sells for 160$, whereas 7610 sells for the same price and 7610 is ages old.
6600 is still selling for 100-120$ where as K700 is not to be found anywhere, and will sell for 100$.
W950 sells for 350-400$ where as M600 sells for the same price, quite baffling as W950 was for more that 500$ over 2 months ago.
W800 was selling for 470$ when it was new, in over 6 months, it was selling for 300$.
Now dont tell me SE doesnt loose its value.
[ This Message was edited by: QVGA on 2007-05-29 10:18 ] |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
PM |
On 2007-05-29 09:38:18, goldenface wrote:
On 2007-05-28 03:49:29, max_wedge wrote:
It always seems that Nokia supporters argue that HSDPA and GPS are high-end requirements, yet they see the touch screen as a non-issue. Herein they reveal the flaw in the argument that Nokia more accurately fulfill high end requirements than SE - because they are judging "high end" only on what their own preference is in a high end phone. I (and many other phone users) consider a touchscreen as an explicit requirement of a high end phone, so from my perspective, Nokia have NO high end phones at all.
The simplicity of your reasoning just made me laugh out loud. Great stuff!
No doubt when VGA 15-30fps recording appears in SE phones we will all be cooing here on Esato.
Wifi, gps are already in SE phones - just non - western ones.
I suspect contributors to this thread have their own idea of what a 'Good Phone' is.
A good phone to me is one that raised the bar in some way, carries out its tasks smoothly and successfully, was a great success for the company and in great demand.
The K800i was a hugely successful phone so that in my opinion is a great phone from SE.
Other people might think a great phone is simply one that packs high-end features - but get this - they have to work!. That, btw, was not a veiled attack on the N95! because it could also be applied to the P990i before now.
While Max makes a great argument, it is flawed because he is basing it on his personal opinion which naturally can not speak for the entire market. As Dogmann put it, this is an open ended debate. Some like TS, some don't. As a user of both, I find that TS are not up to par for my tastes. So in effect, SE does not make the best phones because I switched from them.
Yes, SE has wifi. 802.11B. Enough said on that I think.
I will agree with you that the k800i was a great phone, as was the w810i. I owned them both, but for me they are kids stuff. When I want something more powerful, feature ladened, innovative, I know that SE is not up to the task.
@mib_1800
mib_1800 said: THe problem is we dont see exploding demand for TS (in other words, TS dont inspire sales). But a GPS/5MP/VGA@30fps video rec/HSDPA do. Nobody would doubt N95 is high end and we know demand for N95 went thru the roof because of these factors. I wouldnt be surprise if N95 outsell P1 by 10 to 1.
Sorry, but I don't see any exploding demand for either HSDPA or GPS at the moment, these are still arguably only in demand to a niche sector.
THe same was said of BT and look where that is now. HSDPA is still in the rollout phase, not the niche market phase. Operators are rolling it out as fast as they can get their networks upgraded. GPS sales are booming as well. From biz users to the average consumer. Nokia saw this and put it in their phones (2 at the moment). SE on the other hand, is late to the party again, and got scooped by Nokia.
_________________
The UK's Best Selling Phones
Esato around the World
P990i + BT30Q
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-29 08:39 ]
[/quote]
_________________
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
-/..../../...//.../../-/.//../...//--./---/../-./--.//-/---//-/...././/-../-
[ This Message was edited by: sapporobaby on 2007-05-29 10:22 ] |
MWEB
Joined: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: somewhere nicer than you
PM |
Indeed QVGA, but as we agreed earlier, that means SE devices become much better value, quicker, than Nokia devices for eg, i see that to be a point in SE's favour really.
|
QVGA
Joined: May 23, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Pakistan
PM, WWW
|
On 2007-05-29 11:22:16, mweb6161 wrote:
Indeed QVGA, but as we agreed earlier, that means SE devices become much better value, quicker, than Nokia devices for eg, i see that to be a point in SE's favour really.
i was giving the reason why SE might be beginning to appeal to mass market. i can foresee how many teenagers will get their hands on a P900 at the price its selling for. |
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
PM |
On 2007-05-29 11:16:56, QVGA wrote:
Now dont tell me SE doesnt loose its value.
Name me one time when I have ever said SE doesn't lose value! Where?
Plus, whose market data am I going to believe; that of the industry analysts, who shareholders rely on to preserve their million dollar investments?
Or yours?
@sapporobaby
Well you may regard the K800i as kids stuff but still that doesn't mean it isn't a good phone.
To me each manufacturer has its own cycle of growth. SE is still growing and wants to grow, it won't do this be not concentrating on good mid-tier phones. Like Nokia it is concentrating on the lower end No big deal.
You don't regard the SO903i as a good phone?
_________________
The UK's Best Selling Phones
Esato around the World
P990i + BT30Q
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-29 10:36 ] |
QVGA
Joined: May 23, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Pakistan
PM, WWW
|
On 2007-05-29 11:28:38, goldenface wrote:
On 2007-05-29 11:16:56, QVGA wrote:
Now dont tell me SE doesnt loose its value.
Name me one time when I have ever said SE doesn't lose value! Where?
Plus, whose market data am I going to believe; that of the industry analysts, who shareholders rely on to preserve their million dollar investments?
Or yours?
i am just giving the reason why SE phones are a big seller. Apart from being "good" , price is also a major factor. And those prices i've mentioned are actually quite accurate where as you mentioned average prices and profits. Look up the prices of the phones i've mentioned and see that i am correct.
Why do you think the K750 was a big seller? Because for the most part, it was selling for 300$ or less. Sometimes i think SE doesnt do their phones justice, W950 is surely worth more than 350$ and same for P990 | |
|
Access the forum with a mobile phone via esato.mobi
|
Posted: 2007-05-28 15:02
