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SE failing in producing good phones? |
Arne Anka
Joined: Nov 05, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Sweden
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On 2007-05-26 17:10:59, BobaFett wrote:
@plankgatan at least it has gps... dont forget, its the first mobile fone with that feature
I believe Moto have had GPS integrated in some of their smartphones like A1000 for several years, so I don't think N95 is the first one to have it.
[ This Message was edited by: Arne Anka on 2007-05-26 16:34 ] | |
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sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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On 2007-05-26 17:34:16, Arne Anka wrote:
On 2007-05-26 17:10:59, BobaFett wrote:
@plankgatan at least it has gps... dont forget, its the first mobile fone with that feature
I believe Moto have had GPS integrated in some of their smartphones like A1000 for several years, so I don't think N95 is the first one to have it.
[ This Message was edited by: Arne Anka on 2007-05-26 16:34 ]
I think you are almost correct.
http://www.motorola.com/motoi[....]/details.jsp?globalObjectId=40
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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I've gotta agree with goldenface. SE may not have the same high end line up as Nokia (though they atleast continue to suport Touchscreen, a market segment Nokia deign to support), but this does not mean they aren't producing some great phones.
True they don't have the ALL-IN-ONE N95 latest of everything (except TS) type phones that Nokia have, and they are don't support some technologies yet such as inbuilt gps or hsdpa.
Once they have pumped the mid range market as they are doing, they will re-focus on the high end. I'm not worried about this, I'm quite happy to wait until SE get their purchase in the mid range market, as this is something that was long overdue.
To my way of thinking very few people really mind if SE phones don't have HSDPA. Those that really do, have the option of buying another brand that does have it. There is no need to be sour at SE, it's just a practicallity. Likewise if you wanted the BEST camera phone (what ever your reason) you would get the K800. I don't "blame" Nokia because they don't have the best camera phone, nor do I blame Nokia because they don't have touchscreen. I simply look elsewhere if looking for a touchscreen phone, I don't waste anytime thinking Nokia are letting me down or don't have "good phones" just because they don't support touchscreens or aren't as serious about camera phones as SE.
That's why I don't get this thread. The discussion is great, but the topic is dead wrong. SE have some GREAT phones, but it's just that for some they may not be perfect. I usually find SE phones are more suitable for my preferences than Nokia, that doesn't mean Nokia don't have some great phones either. The Nokia N95 is a great little phone, but I would buy the P1 becuase of the touchscreen (and other factors). It always seems that Nokia supporters argue that HSDPA and GPS are high-end requirements, yet they see the touch screen as a non-issue. Herein they reveal the flaw in the argument that Nokia more accurately fulfill high end requirements than SE - because they are judging "high end" only on what their own preference is in a high end phone. I (and many other phone users) consider a touchscreen as an explicit requirement of a high end phone, so from my perspective, Nokia have NO high end phones at all. 
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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max_wedge
It always seems that Nokia supporters argue that HSDPA and GPS are high-end requirements, yet they see the touch screen as a non-issue.
THe problem is we dont see exploding demand for TS (in other words, TS dont inspire sales). But a GPS/5MP/VGA@30fps video rec/HSDPA do. Nobody would doubt N95 is high end and we know demand for N95 went thru the roof because of these factors. I wouldnt be surprise if N95 outsell P1 by 10 to 1. |
c96sthl
Joined: Mar 31, 2002
Posts: > 500
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actually back to the basic...how to define a great phone?
1. good price?
2. good reliability?
3. have all in one?
4. no major software and design bug?
5. major hit or hit product in every market?
what or how to define it as the word great is so general.
To me...great didn't mean it have to be all in one..... |
razec
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Pearl of the Orient Seas
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On 2007-05-28 05:10:02, c96sthl wrote:
actually back to the basic...how to define a great phone?
1. good price?
2. good reliability?
3. have all in one?
4. no major software and design bug?
5. major hit or hit product in every market?
what or how to define it as the word great is so general.
To me...great didn't mean it have to be all in one.....
1. good price
>>i'm willing to pay more for as long as there is "Excellent Quality"
2. good reliability?
>>It depends i think to the user .
3. have all in one?
>>Big things may beget bigger annoyances
4. no major software and design bug?
>>Of course!  , but if it's unavoidable during the first release, provide us with updates so fix them
5. major hit or hit product in every market?
>>It doesn't matter, the only way to prove a good phone is to use it, explore or test it. if it suits me, then i'll get it, if not choose another, it's simple
~19 years at Esato |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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On 2007-05-28 04:39:59, mib1800 wrote:
THe problem is we dont see exploding demand for TS (in other words, TS dont inspire sales). But a GPS/5MP/VGA@30fps video rec/HSDPA do. Nobody would doubt N95 is high end and we know demand for N95 went thru the roof because of these factors. I wouldnt be surprise if N95 outsell P1 by 10 to 1.
I don't believe TS doesn't drive smartphone sales. Touchscreens are one of the primary reasons of preference for WM users. If you notice, WM is far less successful with hardscreen variants than touchscreen versions. Touchscreen is de riguer for WM devices.
You can't use s60 sales as a measure of smartphone support for Nokia and therefore irrelevance of touchscreen.
The vast majority of Nokia s60 owners aren't buying a smartphone - they are buying a phone that happens to have a smartphone os. Because you tie "smartphone" and "nokia" so closely together you always assume Nokia success in the market proves hardscreen smartphones are the only kind preferred by the smartphone segment. But this is a phallacy. Touchscreen support is still in strong demand by many market segments. In my own experience customers who come to me for advice about phones invariably prefer touchscreen input. Hardscreen smartphones are usually seen as too expensive for something that doesn't have a touchscreen; in other words that the touchscreen is a high end requirement of a phone.
I'm not saying that touch screen is a must have, it still depends on preference, but you are very wrong if you assume touchscreen support to be a thing of the past. WM has built it's whole future on touchscreens, SE continues to support it (and come on now they must have SOME market research to make them believe this is necessary), and many other vendors besides the main ones continue to support touchscreens. Except Nokia 
Neither can you use N95 sales to prove HSDPA and GPS is de riguer in a high end phone. I believe it would have been popular even without those two features, since the average user doesn't know what hspda is and gps is still a gimmick. It's the do-all multimedia, and granted the video quality, that appeals to the mass market.
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KingBooker5
Joined: May 12, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: London, England
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On 2007-05-26 13:47:33, soane28 wrote:
On 2007-05-26 13:38:09, QVGA wrote:
On 2007-05-26 13:34:34, soane28 wrote:
On 2007-05-26 12:36:11, Dogmann wrote:
Any one that states there are no problem with any of SE's released devices is simply not living in the real world and ignoring the facts, and i am not just talking about UIQ3 devices either just read this and all the other SE based forums for the complaints that are plain for all to see.
And noone that states there are no problems with any of Nokias released devices is simply not living in the real world either.
You should be blaming SE's lack of TECHNOLOGICAL FEATURES rather than saying SE phones have problems - every brand has problems with their phones. We could be here all day picking at every problem each brand has!
SE cant keep up with the largest mobile phone company which has a huge market share that brings the cash to offer excellent technological offerings. Its pretty obvious.
[ This Message was edited by: soane28 on 2007-05-26 12:36 ]
SE has taken over motorolla in a number of countries, it has sold millions of K750s, K800 and its W series were a mega hit. Where is the money they earned from those going? In T650, S500 and other uninnovative models? Money is not an issue.
all their money are going into "uninnovative models" to get more money cos they are cheaper than high end models. Its like taking a step back to take a bigger step forward. More profit from mid end = more profit for high end phones. Thats y we havent seen anything high end this half of the year - because they are going to announce high end stuff later in the year once they know they have a good stable income from their now huge mid range. This is how i see it and entirely my opinion.
[ This Message was edited by: soane28 on 2007-05-26 12:49 ]
Havnt you forgot about all the income SE have made with its other phones? They have more than enough money to make somthing spectaculer. And if they release it, they will be getting double what they are making now. Maybe if they stop making crap, available from 2 years ago (not including the classic k750 ofcourse) they can be making double and the double high ends. Who thinks the k550 is just a rewrapped k750 under the cyber-shot name? |
MWEB
Joined: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: somewhere nicer than you
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Max wedge really knows his stuff, 100% correct, good evaluation in all respects!!
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ttsng
Joined: Nov 09, 2006
Posts: 61
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I think the TS is important. But N95 price is almost double of P990i. |
masseur
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Sydney, London
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I believe anything which improves the user interface has to be a plus and its large part of why I have stuck with pocketpc/windows mobile devices and now the M600 and I do miss it on N95. However, if a non touchscreen device is what you choose based on other factors its easy to live with for the most part.
regarding price comparison, yes they are the prices today but how much was P990 when it came out last October? people were paying £500-600 in the first couple of weeks and look how much the device is worth now. But thats the way it works unfortunately and I would expect the N95 to devalue just as much when it is 9 months old.
talking money... I've never really got on with the P990 myself (but mostly for size reasons) but if money was an issue and I wanted a device with these features then probably I would choose the P990 over the N95 because it is now a very usable and stable device. Its just a shame it wasn't that when it was released and I guess that is the point of this thread
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sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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On 2007-05-28 07:23:02, max_wedge wrote:
On 2007-05-28 04:39:59, mib1800 wrote:
THe problem is we dont see exploding demand for TS (in other words, TS dont inspire sales). But a GPS/5MP/VGA@30fps video rec/HSDPA do. Nobody would doubt N95 is high end and we know demand for N95 went thru the roof because of these factors. I wouldnt be surprise if N95 outsell P1 by 10 to 1.
I don't believe TS doesn't drive smartphone sales. Touchscreens are one of the primary reasons of preference for WM users. If you notice, WM is far less successful with hardscreen variants than touchscreen versions. Touchscreen is de riguer for WM devices.
You can't use s60 sales as a measure of smartphone support for Nokia and therefore irrelevance of touchscreen.
The vast majority of Nokia s60 owners aren't buying a smartphone - they are buying a phone that happens to have a smartphone os. Because you tie "smartphone" and "nokia" so closely together you always assume Nokia success in the market proves hardscreen smartphones are the only kind preferred by the smartphone segment. But this is a phallacy. Touchscreen support is still in strong demand by many market segments. In my own experience customers who come to me for advice about phones invariably prefer touchscreen input. Hardscreen smartphones are usually seen as too expensive for something that doesn't have a touchscreen; in other words that the touchscreen is a high end requirement of a phone.
I'm not saying that touch screen is a must have, it still depends on preference, but you are very wrong if you assume touchscreen support to be a thing of the past. WM has built it's whole future on touchscreens, SE continues to support it (and come on now they must have SOME market research to make them believe this is necessary), and many other vendors besides the main ones continue to support touchscreens. Except Nokia
Neither can you use N95 sales to prove HSDPA and GPS is de riguer in a high end phone. I believe it would have been popular even without those two features, since the average user doesn't know what hspda is and gps is still a gimmick. It's the do-all multimedia, and granted the video quality, that appeals to the mass market.
Good post Max,
I think you have touched on something here. There are two very divergent camps when it comes to phone types. The hard screener, and TS'rs. The middle ground of the "it doesn't matters" is maybe where SE is indirectly concentrating. TS'r know what they want, as do hard screen guys. They will not be swayed either way, however the middle ground is free game. Nokia seems to have researched that there is no real market for TS's while SE seems to have found that there is a market there. Either they are asking the wrong questions or their respondents are lying. I am sure that if Nokia felt there is a market for a TS, their line up would include this. Actually they do have a device, two in fact. While if SE felt the TS market was flagging, then they would discontinue it. As a user of both, I find the hard screens suit my needs better. Would I go back to a touch screen? Maybe. Does it matter who makes it. Not really.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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On 2007-05-28 12:19:26, sapporobaby wrote:
Good post Max,
I think you have touched on something here. There are two very divergent camps when it comes to phone types. The hard screener, and TS'rs. The middle ground of the "it doesn't matters" is maybe where SE is indirectly concentrating. TS'r know what they want, as do hard screen guys. They will not be swayed either way, however the middle ground is free game. Nokia seems to have researched that there is no real market for TS's while SE seems to have found that there is a market there. Either they are asking the wrong questions or their respondents are lying. I am sure that if Nokia felt there is a market for a TS, their line up would include this. Actually they do have a device, two in fact. While if SE felt the TS market was flagging, then they would discontinue it. As a user of both, I find the hard screens suit my needs better. Would I go back to a touch screen? Maybe. Does it matter who makes it. Not really.
My feeling is that TS is for Nokia, what UIQ3 has been for SE. Something necessary, but difficult to get working right. Nokia was still working on TS support from what I understood, but I'm not sure if that is for s60 or s90. There was talk of doing s60 as well.
If they haven't shelved TS development completely, then it just means they are biding their time, just like SE are over HSDPA and Video. Building markets slowly rather than trying to introduce everything at once.
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skylineR35
Joined: May 03, 2006
Posts: 279
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The vast majority of Nokia s60 owners aren't buying a smartphone - they are buying a phone that happens to have a smartphone os. Because you tie "smartphone" and "nokia" so closely together you always assume Nokia success in the market proves hardscreen smartphones are the only kind preferred by the smartphone segment.
i got to fully agree into this extent...
cause some people do not know this part |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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On 2007-05-28 12:39:55, max_wedge wrote:
On 2007-05-28 12:19:26, sapporobaby wrote:
Good post Max,
I think you have touched on something here. There are two very divergent camps when it comes to phone types. The hard screener, and TS'rs. The middle ground of the "it doesn't matters" is maybe where SE is indirectly concentrating. TS'r know what they want, as do hard screen guys. They will not be swayed either way, however the middle ground is free game. Nokia seems to have researched that there is no real market for TS's while SE seems to have found that there is a market there. Either they are asking the wrong questions or their respondents are lying. I am sure that if Nokia felt there is a market for a TS, their line up would include this. Actually they do have a device, two in fact. While if SE felt the TS market was flagging, then they would discontinue it. As a user of both, I find the hard screens suit my needs better. Would I go back to a touch screen? Maybe. Does it matter who makes it. Not really.
My feeling is that TS is for Nokia, what UIQ3 has been for SE. Something necessary, but difficult to get working right. Nokia was still working on TS support from what I understood, but I'm not sure if that is for s60 or s90. There was talk of doing s60 as well.
If they haven't shelved TS development completely, then it just means they are biding their time, just like SE are over HSDPA and Video. Building markets slowly rather than trying to introduce everything at once.
Actually they have two devices: the N800 and the N770 are both touch screens. THe N800 is great with it. Nokia can make it work and has proven it. The bigger thing is that I feel (my opinion) they do not see this as necessary.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? | |
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Posted: 2007-05-26 17:34
