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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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On 2008-03-23 03:54:14, Dogmann wrote:
@Max
I really can't agree with go read the K850 firmware thread and how many people have had 3,4,5 devices before giving up and moving to another brand in disgust. These people will not come running back to SE as they have no confidence or trust in them any longer and really who can blame them.
I agree they screwed up with K850 also. SE are really bad at bringing out anything new. It takes them several iterations to get it right, and K850 is A200, a new platform.
K850 is only one phone. However, on reflection, I think you are probably right, K850 problems would have impacted SE marketshare. It's more likely that K850 problems are responsible for SE slipping than the P990 (even though the P990 was a worse cock-up, the K850 is more recent so more likely to explain the current slip by SE.)
This is something they can recover from if they get A200 right on the next Kseries (or C series - whatever carries on the Cybershot name)
RE: HSDPA, I admit some frustration with SE over the lack of HSDPA, but I'd still buy a G series myself because the price structure of mobile broadband limits me to uses for which standard 3G is suitable. Everything I use a 3G phone for now, 384Kbps is suitable. Once prices really start to drop, then I will want to use my phone for more serious data consumption.
I believe the G series will be a market success despite lack of HSDPA. What I will say however, and you can quote me  if SE don't get HSDPA sorted in UIQ devices by the middle of 2009, then it will start to impact their marketshare very badly. I believe this because it's my view that 2009 will be the year that true mobile broadband (aka faster than 384Kbps) will really take off in the west and it will no longer be possible for OEM's to ignore HSDPA.
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shyam335
Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: 127.0.0.1
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How about EDGE,you go out go and buy latest and greatest sonyericsson smartphone to find that it doesn't support EDGE.
I understand it doesn't matter everyone,but Im sure it will be of concern in countries/places where 3G or its coverage is absent.
Although not directly related to topic I must say again,they have milked for more than enough (current products/platform),high time to intro something better. |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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Hi Max
The thing is whilst HSDPA may be expensive in Aus here in the UK it is supported well by most of the Networks and available via fixed price data plans so why would some one restrict them selves to 384kbps when they could for the same cost get up to 3.6mbps especially on a smart phone which is a data centric device.
HSDPA is hardly a secret and i would imagine most that are looking at smart phones or even normal phones that are interested in Web Browsing want the best speed and experience possible. Personally i find the omission of HSDPA in the G series to be yet another major mistake, lots of other devices at this price range have it even SE non smart phones have it and i really do believe this will not attract new users to SE leaving only there existing users that may go for it hardly a way to gain market share which they are intended to do.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-23 09:38 ] |
carkitter
Joined: Apr 29, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Auckland, NZ
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@ max
Well go get a V640i/K630i then.
HSDPA 
A200 with no bugs that I've found so far 
Greatly improved Media player 
Good camera quality and Awesome Camera Settings UI
Black or Gorgeous Havanna Gold
40% of K850i price here in NZ, and $100 cheaper than 2.5G Nokia 5310 Xpress Music
Its out NOW!
Become only the 3rd Esatonian to own one (after myself and Xellar)
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[ This Message was edited by: carkitter on 2008-03-23 10:06 ]
[ This Message was edited by: carkitter on 2008-04-01 12:29 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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tempted carkitter But I like the idea of the G900 - Touchscreen in a candybar - I've been waiting for this for years.
@dogmann, I hear your argument, but I don't agree. It's my view that, not just in Aussie but in most of the west and also india (going by aksd in the other thread it seems to be the same), the vast majority of phone users don't even plug into a computer. So while it's data centric to people like us on these forums who like to get the most out of our devices, the majority just don't go to that effort.
Once there are real marketable services that the average joe will be interested in, HSDPA will come into it's own.
This in my estimation, will take untill mid 2009.
For myself, I will be keenly interested in the X1 for my HSDPA use, to replace my current HP HW6900 WM device, and the G900 to replace my K800 as my everyday phone. Candybar is my preferred formfactor for everyday use. And for everyday use I don't need HSDPA. For business and computer geeky kind of uses (which is where I use more serious data consumption) I don't mind having a second phone.
Maybe if The phone that replaces G900 has HSDPA, I will drop the WM device, but probably I will always have some kind of WM hanging around.
I do admit that I personally wish SE would get their shit together on HSDPA in UIQ. It would be lovely for me (and many SE fans on this forum) if G900 were to have HSDPA. But I don't believe the average end user is yet to really take advantage of HSDPA and untill they do SE still has some time to catch up.
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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Hi Max
I never said you had to agree with me as it is as unlikely as i will agree with you, but just watch the next release of UIQ devices that will have HSDPA and faster processors.
Guess what then all of a sudden lots of SE users will start saying just how great faster processors and HSDPA is, well no surprise there then really. I just hope these announced devices don't take for ever to arrive and actually deliver on there promise and will be stable and relatively bug free. Although for many that still want be enough for them to return.
Marc
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Nokia E90,8GB SDHC, Fring, Tom Tom 6
Dogmanns Nokia E90 Blog @ http://dogmann.vox.com/
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-24 12:36 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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On 2008-03-24 13:36:17, Dogmann wrote:
Hi Max
I never said you had to agree with me as it is as unlikely as i will agree with you
of course you didn't and this is what I like about you dogmann - you are your own person. We can agree to disagree and still have mutual respect. 
Guess what then all of a sudden lots of SE users will start saying just how great faster processors and HSDPA is, well no surprise there then really. I just hope these announced devices don't take for ever to arrive and actually deliver on there promise and will be stable and relatively bug free. Although for many that still want be enough for them to return.
You are right many SE fanboys will say this. But don't equate the SE fanboys that come on here saying SE is the best bleet bleet" with the average SE end user. SE fanboys are a minority of the total group of SE end users, it's just that most of that minority congregate on this forum  The average SE end user isn't that blindly loyal to SE. Nor can you divide average phone users up into SE Users and Non-SE users. The majority of phone users out there move from phone to phone based on factors other than manufacturer.
And the majority of those end users (fanboys and just average users, regardless of manufacturer) wouldn't know the difference between HSDPA and 3G (that's my view, and we have agreed to disagree upon this).
That's all I argue. I've never argued that HSDPA is not a great thing, or that faster CPU's aren't better. You will get no argument from me about that.
Yes, there will be a lot of bleeting from the "SE fanboys" when SE brings out HSDPA, but please respectfully understand that I am not one of those immature creatures
I am an admirer of SE products. I also admire Sony products, Windows, Dell, McDonnell Douglas, Peugeot, and a large variety of other manufacturers. This doesn't make me a fanboy All those manufacturers have been responsible for some monumental cock ups I can accept the problems SE have and yet still admire the things they do right.
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@max_wedge:
I can accept the problems SE have and yet still admire the things they do right.
SE dont seems to be doing things right for the last year or two. This type of thread will not be here during the heyday of K750/K800/W800. The sign is still pointing to SE going downhill. After so long there is stil nothing from SE that looks promising.
2 years ago Samsung dont have the arsenal that SE have but take a look now with phone like G810, i550 and slew of other touch and wm smartphones. 2 years ago, Nokia was struggling against the power of SE K800 and music phones. Now it is SE that is kissing the a** in the music and camera. SE started off as a powerhouse in smartphone with its p800/900 but look at where it is now.
And all this stem from SE not paying attention to the market and competitions but only listening to its pocket. Look at all the clone phones that SE tries to pass of as new phone. No wonder buyers are walking away.
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anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
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It worries me that SE's core technology support is increasingly lagging behind other manufacturers. There was a time when SE (and E before them) were consistently in the forefront of new technologies, and would have leapt on something like HSDPA before it was even available from any network, but now we're still unlikely to get a HSDPA-toting smartphone from SE before the X1 appears at the end of the year - more than a year after it became standard issue in other lineups.
I spent some time arguing with Dogman last year over HSDPA when the P1 was released without it, and how useful/important it really was. I still feel that if I didn't have it, I probably wouldn't miss it, but since I have had it on my Tytn 2 since October, and noticed the real difference it does make, I certainly wouldn't go back to another phone without it. That rules out most of SE's lineup for me right now, with only non-smartphones like the K850 to choose from. Not good at all.
Back in October/November last year, when I bought my Tytn II, we were told that SE were planning their next killer smartphone based on UIQ that would have HSDPA and GPS etc - the fabled "P5". That phone is still lost in the land of myth and legend, having pointedly not been officially announced by SE at any point, suggesting we may be well into 2009 before anything like it actually appears on shelves. In the meantime we have the X1, but only with HTC's help, and even that isn't likely to appear until the end of the year. This really leaves SE floundering in the interim. The P1 is already old, the W960 is a toy (and slightly dissapointing at that), and the G series is little more than the repackaging of the same 2-3 year old UIQ3 line for the low-end market. SE's position as a leading-edge manufacturer is sorely eroded in my opinion.
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@Boinng and all
Nicely put that is the point i keep on trying to get across that where Ericsson and SE used to lead and be on the cutting edge of introducing new tech they have now fallen so far behind. Flagship devices are what attract new users to the lower end as they aspire to get the best a brand offers whilst at the same time satisfying the more Tech savvy and generating good PR and this is an area IMO that SE really are failing.
Marc
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Dogmanns Nokia E90 Blog @ http://dogmann.vox.com/
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-25 13:21 ] |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
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It's a lot to do with brand image - I keep thinking back to when the P800 was launched, it really put the "new" brand of Sony Ericsson on the map and gave the competition something to think about. Back then, you could look at the likes of Nokia for example, and say "okay, they're selling a lot more phones, but they don't have anything as advanced as this". Nokia phones just weren't as clever as the P800 - you could buy SE in the knowledge that you were getting a better product, even if it wasn't necessarily popular or fashionable.
Now it feels like SE's losing on all counts - it doesn't have the numbers, and it doesn't have the technology lead either. There's not a single phone in the range that isn't in some way trounced by the competition - sad but true. You can prefer the SE "style", and be as loyal as you like to the name, but if you choose an SE phone right now you're almost certainly getting a technically inferior product. That's a shameful truth.
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[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2008-03-25 13:31 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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but if you choose an SE phone right now you're almost certainly getting a technically inferior product. That's a shameful truth.
...and this poignant truth is one that some SE fans seems to be oblivious to .
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makbil
Joined: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Istanbul
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Adding to all the points already mentioned above, as we P990 users know very well, the technical (hw & sw) brain power behind these high tech devices are no where near the level required.
As mentioned, SE has not come up with any new fw after the P990, they are still working with the base P990 code thus propagating all its problems to new devices.
I remember when I got my P800, then P900, it was a unique device which caught everyones attention. SE has definitely regressed over time.
P990i: A mistake, a curse and a disgrace  So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD |
Pochi
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 94
From: Saudi Arabia
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Why can't compete with nokia in term of making an all-in-one mobile phones (1 a year) without it being a p-series or any symbian uiq OS(Which is in my opinion worst then the old UIQ in term of the Interface) based phone like the N95 and N82, or at least like the old days of ?
Because like this i believe nokia is or progressing by releasing those awesome N-series phones and their effort into making better quality phone cases (They are beginning to making better casing now but still they didn't reach 's casing quality) and that will drive alot of fans (which i'm one of them) into buying nokia phones in the future, or even right now.
Visit My Blog At: http://www.ffxivlife.com/ |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: > 500
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It seems to be this inability to move past the basic platform of the P990 that is inhibiting their progress on HSDPA and other areas. It's quite frustrating to watch "new" products like the W960 and upcoming G series being rolled out with essentially the same weak, outdated hardware under the bonnet. It never impressed in the P990 two years ago, and it certainly doesn't cut the mustard now - it's time to scrap it and move on.
We're at the point where the UIQ4 device designed to puncture this malaise needs to be on the market now, or at least be close enough to touch. Since it's not, and quite obviously isn't going to be ready for some time, you really have to ask whether SE are capable of playing in this market. Maybe they should just quietly retire UIQ and concentrate on joint WM projects like the X1 - at least that OS is here, working, and up to date.
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Posted: 2008-03-23 04:53
So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD 
