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SAD SE 2007 Portfolio-Hard to digest facts |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
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@G-Izzat
I have to disagree whilst SE as a joint venture is only some 5 years old now, Ericsson has been around for a very long time and they didn't throw out all their knowledge and capacity for innovation just because they joined forces with Sony. Although maybe that is what they did do after all, they were more than able announce a ground breaking device back in 2005 the P990 it is only what they delivered that let them down the concept was brilliant at the time. The problem is since then there hardware has failed to advance at all, an extra 64mb Ram can hardly be classed as an advancement especially as this is a necessity.
Hopefully the next set of devices will buck this trend and really show some major improvements in hardware i really hope so, i want nothing more than a device to blow me away and that i aspire to and it's about time SE delivered one for all of us.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-10-25 13:34 ] | |
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G-Izzat
Joined: Nov 15, 2006
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On 2007-10-25 14:33:49, Dogmann wrote:
@G-Izzat
I have to disagree whilst SE as a joint venture is only some 5 years old now, Ericsson has been around for a very long time and they didn't throw out all their knowledge and capacity for innovation just because they joined forces with Sony. Although maybe that is what they did do after all, they were more than able announce a ground breaking device back in 2005 the P990 it is only what they delivered that let them down the concept was brilliant at the time. The problem is since then there hardware has failed to advance at all, an extra 64mb Ram can hardly be classed as an advancement especially as this is a necessity.
Hopefully the next set of devices will buck this trend and really show some major improvements in hardware i really hope so, i want nothing more than a device to blow me away and that i aspire to and it's about time SE delivered one for all of us.
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-10-25 13:34 ]
Yeah, they are having problems in upgrading the specs on their smartphones.
But this topic really doesn't do justice to Sony Ericsson. They've done quite well this year. I don't know how's the P1i is selling right now, but if they've gotten that out in the first place, and not making the M600 and P990, I'm sure it would've been a best seller.
I admit, Sony Ericsson is a bit late in the Smartphone category. And also the K850, which is just a bit late this year. Should've come out much sooner.
Hopefully they'll announce some new and high quality product which would attract customers on the 6th of November. |
max_wedge
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On 2007-10-25 08:37:28, mib1800 wrote:
On 2007-10-25 01:03:24, max_wedge wrote:
but not on style or ergonomics or suitable features (everyone's needs for certain features differ) as these are open to interpretation.
BUT you are NOT!!!. One great example is your statement:- "N95 video rec is slightly better than K850". It is an undeniable fact that N95 video rec whoops K850 ass but yet you are still in denial.
I meant in terms of image quality not resolution. There is bad pixelation on video for example, hardly the "close to DVD" quality that Dogmann claims?? I mean really, close to DVD quality?? The VGA recording is much better than other phones on the market (when you consider the resolution) but this IS NOT DVD quality, it is still just a gimmick.
On 2007-10-25 05:55:46, mario2004 wrote:
@Max I bothered to look thru your posts you've made ages ago and I must say you contradict yourself here and there. But I guess that's ok. Everyone will change his/hers opinion as time 'changes'. The thing is you change you opinion to make SE look particularly good when they clearly aren't. People like 'ARES' are very silent this days when it comes to bashing Nokia. You on the other hand are still trumpeting SE's "hi-end" phones. (if one can talk about SE and hi-end). Even more, you get very 'agitated' if one does put the 'facts on the table'. You'll meticulously give long and twisted answers trying to defend the undefendable. This things make people think, you are a 'true' SE fanboy - if you accept/like it or not. Sorry bud.
It's you who can't accept any opposition to your view that SE are "undefendable". Whoever looks at a spec list and says "this phone is better" needs to recognise the real world for a change. It's you view that SE are undefendable, not mine and I don't see why having a different opinion about this makes me a fanboy?
I have never once "trumpeted" se phones. That's only how you see it because of your anit-SE attitude. Nothing SE does is good enough for you, so you will always see SE as a failure.
The prime example, among a couple of others, is the issue of touchscreen. You completely dismiss the validity of the touchscreen as an advanced feature of SE phones that is not present in Nokia business phones, as if it was a non-issue, then expect me to accept your argument that SE has no leading edge tech and are therefore "undefendable"?
I'm not the only one who likes touchscreens, and SE actually have recognised this in their consumer focus groups, otherwise they would have dropped it ages ago. SE KNOW they have a loyal pda user segment who would walk completely if they dropped touchscreens. Yet you completely dismiss touchscreens because YOU don't like them. This is exactly the bias you accuse me of.
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-10-26 00:35 ] |
max_wedge
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On 2007-10-25 13:59:46, Dogmann wrote:
"The output is still poorly pixelated on movement and detail (particularly foliage), colour is as bad as the still camera, and tbh no single camera phone on the market yet has video suitable for displaying on a TV screen. The N95 cmos sensor doesn't do the vga resolution justice at all imho."
Which lets be honest whilst it may be in his honest opinion is just not supported by the facts is it. As i said above it may not be DVD quality but it is not far off.
instead of telling me to accept you words as fact, can you PLEASE show me where you found N95 videos that are close to DVD quality?? Please because the videos I have seen are NO WHERE NEAR DVD quality, and that's a fact. Infact most home handy cams are far better. ie: it's a gimmick.
He also continues to try and make his point with this statement
" I am arguing no phone on the market yet does useful video recording. K850 in my view doesn't need VGA recording as VGA recording is still just a gimmick."
Which is rather strange considering how these devices made news for being the first to offer this along with all the positive reviews and user experiences. Of first the N93 the first device to be able to offer this, and then the N93i and N95.
Being the first to bring out vga recording in a camera phone in no way "proves" that the VGA recording is anywhere near as good as DVD quality. All it shows is that people are impressed for a CAMERA PHONE to be able to fo what it does. Compare against a mid-range handycam and then tell me it's good video.
But this is his opinion and obviously he is entitled to it but to suggest what he meant is it is just below 30fps or DVD quality is just not correct. As if he had stated it was below DVD quality i would of agreed as i would imagine would everyone else. Unfortuantly this is not what Max has claimed which is why we have not agreed with him. If you are going to support what some ones opinion is and what they have said perhaps you should check exactly what that is first.
ah, when did I claim any phone was DVD quality? Or even "near DVD quality"? What I'm trying to say is that no phone even approaches DVD quality recording, and infact it's a long long reach to suggest that they do.
The fact you interpret me as saying the opposite leads me to seriously suspect that you are over-reacting to my posts without even giving me the consideration of reading what I say. I don't want to think that, but I can't see how else to interpret you believing that I have ever claimed that either K850 OR N95 have even close to DVD quality. Because I have never thought this for even a second.
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max_wedge
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On 2007-10-25 14:33:49, Dogmann wrote:
Hopefully the next set of devices will buck this trend and really show some major improvements in hardware i really hope so, i want nothing more than a device to blow me away and that i aspire to and it's about time SE delivered one for all of us.
Marc
Dogmann, whilst we disagree on many areas, I 100% agree with your sentiment behind this statement. I don't agree SE are "undefendable" as Mario put's it, but I do agree it will be nice once SE get back to doing smartphones better than anyone else.
I like SE current smartphones, and get sick of having to justify the fact that I do like them. I don't feel passionately as you do that they have failed us in the smartphone arena. I do think they still make great smartphones, despite the failings they have (all phones have failings or disadvantages).
But that doesn't mean I don't want to see SE climb back on top of the smartphone heap. It would be great if P1 had wifi g, it would be great if W960 was to have HSDPA. I understand and accept the sentiment.
But why oh why does the lack of these features make people so angry with SE?? I mean it's a phone for god's sake, not world peace. 
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mode
Joined: Jan 12, 2007
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Also Mode don't think it is a little rich you accusing Mario of being a Nokia Fan Boy when you exhibit exactly the same if not stronger support for SE or are you an SE Fan Boy? and don't find being called one insulting?
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-10-25 13:24 ]
Actually Marc, no, I don't mind you or any of you here calling me a fanboy because that's what I am and I'm proud of it. Loyalty is actually something rare in this day and age. Stated this a few times before if you'd bother to check my posts. Though my loyalty's running thin, just like a marriage you don't abandon one at the first sign of trouble SE has been good to me all this while. Don't say I'm not tempted right now because I'm so tempted by Samsung ATM, but I'm still going to rough it out and see how much longer SE is going to keep up their crap. But back to what you mentioned, mario2004's tone was demeaning suggesting it's a bad thing to be called a fanboy so I ask, would he mind if something bad is hurled towards him instead. It's a fair question right,even though it doesn't concern me
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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From: London England
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@Max
Well conversely please direct me to where i can see all those poor quality pix elated Video's taken from the N93.N93i and N95. As i previously pointed out go to all About Symbian and download Steve Litchfield Podcasts as all of these stopped being recorded on a handy cam and have been produced with a N93 since he got that device.
Do you really think a journalist that writes both for magazines and Forums would use a N93 if it produced poor qaulity pix elated Video. Unfortuantly i lost all the Video i had shot with my N93 when my Sony Laptop required a reformat, that will teach me not to back up.
I have owned two of the above three devices so know how they perform just what are you basing your findings on, please don't tell me You Tube because that will be to funny for words.
As for
"ah, when did I claim any phone was DVD quality? Or even "near DVD quality"? "
Max maybe you should of read what i said properly before making this comment as firstly it was to correct Mode on his assumption of what you may of meant and secondly i never said you did.
Which makes this next line even funnier as yet again you are happy to accuse me of something i have not done but exactly what you have done strange that isn't it.
"The fact you interpret me as saying the opposite leads me to seriously suspect that you are over-reacting to my posts without even giving me the consideration of reading what I say."
This unfortunately is something you do the a lot of the time over react not just this but you also seem to accuse others of the behaviours you exhibit. Maybe this is something you should look at before accusing others of doing.
Just to clear things up i never claimed you did say anything about DVD quality video not once so your last point is with out merit check what i actually said rather than what you think or want me to have said.
Your last post makes no sense as i never said you can't like or even buy them if you wish, but what i do say is they are lacking in tech which makes them very expensive for what they are.
The very simple reason why people moan is they are paying premium prices for these devices and not getting value for money, also many people unlike you don't see these things as unnecessary but very necessary.
Especially when for the same money many manufacturers offer what they want just not SE, SE used to lead in this filed but not since 2005 have they even announced a smart phone that is on par Tech wise with what other manufacturers are delivering and no not just Nokia either and that is the point and that's not even taking into account how buggy these devices have been. Yes all devices seem to have some bugs but SE seem to both have more and take much longer to release Firmware updates that fix them.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-10-26 01:46 ] |
NightBlade
Joined: Jul 29, 2007
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From: Nessebar, Bulgaria
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This thread is depressing...  In a non-friendly kinda way.
And for Esato non-friendliness is a huge no-no. |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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From: London England
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@NightBlade
Not really sure i agree with you it is relatively civilised i have definitely seen worse, just differences of opinion and few misunderstandings is all really i don't think it is that bad otherwise I'm sure Masseur would of called a halt to it by now.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-10-26 01:57 ] |
NightBlade
Joined: Jul 29, 2007
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From: Nessebar, Bulgaria
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Nuh, nuh, nuh, you don't get it.
I don't mean some kind of flame war. I mean, like a 6-year-old would say, non-...rainbow-y.
Get it?  |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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On 2007-10-26 02:43:23, Dogmann wrote:
@Max
I have owned two of the above three devices so know how they perform just what are you basing your findings on, please don't tell me You Tube because that will be to funny for words.
If you think I'm that stupid then you haven't been noticing that I actually have a clue about technology? I'll check into your podcast claim, if you are right and I can see video that is "near DVD quality" I will quite willingly cede the point to you. But none of the unedited video direct from N95 phones that I have seen even approaches "DVD" quality. This includes the video samples provided by reviews etc.
This unfortunately is something you do the a lot of the time over react not just this but you also seem to accuse others of the behaviours you exhibit. Maybe this is something you should look at before accusing others of doing.
to be brutally honest mate, you didn't make any sense whatsoever - reread your reply to Mode, it's not clear at all. Nevertheless I am happy to apologise for misinterpreting that and retract the statement - it really seemed to me that you were saying that I had mentioned something about DVD quality, which I never had.
Your last post makes no sense as i never said you can't like or even buy them if you wish, but what i do say is they are lacking in tech which makes them very expensive for what they are.
In my market, SE phones are considerably cheaper than Nokia (for example K850 much cheaper than N80, P1 much cheaper than N95), so I really can't accept the argument that the N95 is better value for money. Better maybe (sans freaking touchscreen), but not better value. About the same imho. Add the touchscreen into the equation and the P1 is imho much better value for money than the N95.
The very simple reason why people moan is they are paying premium prices for these devices and not getting value for money, also many people unlike you don't see these things as unnecessary but very necessary.
For my needs and those who think like I do, the N95 is much more premium and not as good value for money (and I am by no means some strange individual all alone who likes touchscreens, SE UI, SE styling).
I've got no problem with people moaning about it, but they have no right to accuse people who get satisfaction out of SE of being fanboys or apologisers.
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-10-26 02:33 ] |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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@Max
Sorry but i really think you are in need of a holiday or just a break as you really are beginning to loose it. Why are you being so defensive and aggressive the whole time? Also why does everything now have to be compared to the N95 continuously as though this is some benchmark especially when what we are talking about has nothing to do with it. I find it very hard to believe a well over a year old N80 is more expensive then a K850 is that really the price in Aus? in fact I'm amazed you can still find a new one.
Where any where in this whole thread have i made any suggestion that you are stupid? Also i would hardly judge Video quality posted on the web as a guide as to how good or bad video quality is as any web based video quality is always reduced for bandwidth constraints if nothing else so really isn't a good example of how to judge qaulity.
Now if you said you have seen video from one of these devices directly on the device or using TV out that would be credible viewing it on the Web just isn't. As i said download a podcast from All About Symbian and see what you think.
Again re better value for my money why compare it to the N95 as you said you want a touchscreen compare it to a HTC Kaiser that has all the tech i am talking about. It really is impossible to claim that SE's are much cheaper than other devices because they are missing the tech look how much the initial UIQ3 devices were and there prices only dropped because of their problems. I very much doubt the W960 is going to be cheap by any stretch of the imagination so this argument of SE are cheaper really makes no sense IF they were cheaper they are still old tech.
Can you please stop this obsession with the N95 we get you don't rate it but why do you have to compare everything all the time to it. You mention it all the time now and compare it to devices it is not comparable to.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-10-26 03:15 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
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With 2007 coming to a close, it quite distinct on how the manufacturers can be divided.
Nokia, Samsung & LG => progressive
SE , Moto =>regressive
I am surprise that SE did not fall below LG in ranking this year with its mediocre "carry over from 2006" phones. Maybe the thing that save SE is the SE name itself. Maybe a knee-jerk will be good for SE. Look at LG which hits back with great phone like Chocolate, Shine, Prada, Viewty. I wont be surprise if LG overtakes SE in 2008 if SE sit on its ass and continues its 2007 strategy into 2008.
One thing is for certain. SE is falling further behind Noka and samsung in cutting edge phone. Even Moto makes some progress with its Z8 smart but SE just recycle its UIQ3 phones from last year. Worse is SE still believes in the fallacy that consumers are gullible enough to pay a premium price for its (lower) spec-ed phones which is evident in the ridiculous pricing of "yesterday" phones W910/K850/W960.
Eventhough I am not a fan of SE, last year my feeling was that SE was very potent and nimble nipping away at Nokia to be the best in tech phones. (I believe many of you felt the euphoria with p990 or K800 or w-series). Certainly at that time, I would not have ranked SE below LG or samsung in tech phones. Unfortunately that is just what had happened this year.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-10-26 06:56 ] |
max_wedge
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On 2007-10-26 04:13:40, Dogmann wrote:
Sorry but i really think you are in need of a holiday or just a break as you really are beginning to loose it.
I'll ignore this little unsult
Why are you being so defensive and aggressive the whole time?
I am not being aggressive or defensive, I'm just stating my opinions. You are reading more into it than I am actually saying.
Also why does everything now have to be compared to the N95 continuously as though this is some benchmark especially when what we are talking about has nothing to do with it.
I repeat again, I am not the one who mentions Nokia first. Whenever someone tries to say they think SE phones are great, suddenly the naysayers are waxing on about how much better Nokia are and therefore SE are crap. So I am forced to give my reasons why I think SE are better than Nokia. It's not me who starts the Nokia comarisons, but if someone wants to start it I'll be happy to finish it my friend.
I find it very hard to believe a well over a year old N80 is more expensive then a K850 is that really the price in Aus? in fact I'm amazed you can still find a new one.
Sorry, I was thinking of the N80/K800 pair not K850.
Where any where in this whole thread have i made any suggestion that you are stupid?
I never accused you of calling me stupid. However implying I don't know about the re-filtering of YOUTUBE video is tantamount to calling me stupid. As you yourself said, you will laugh if I am talking about you tube video. Read my post carefully you will see I was talking about video direct from the phone itself ie: mp4 files created by the phone and provided by reviewers for download. I wasn't talking about youtube, google, or any kind of resampled or streamed video - I am talking about the actual video file produced by the N95 itself.
Also i would hardly judge Video quality posted on the web as a guide as to how good or bad video quality is as any web based video quality is always reduced for bandwidth constraints if nothing else so really isn't a good example of how to judge qaulity.
Now if you said you have seen video from one of these devices directly on the device or using TV out that would be credible viewing it on the Web just isn't. As i said download a podcast from All About Symbian and see what you think.
Actually if you record a video with the N95, then save the mp4 file direct off the phones file system and post it on a filesharing service such as rapidshare, and the person (me in this case) who downloads the video will have a pure unadulterated example of the video that the N95 produces. From that it is possible to determine the kind of quality the N95 is capable of.
Again re better value for my money why compare it to the N95 as you said you want a touchscreen compare it to a HTC Kaiser that has all the tech i am talking about.
some htc are nice I admit, but the one's that have all the goods are expensive. Very few HTC have decent cameras (forget about spec, I'm not talking about MP, or even AF, they just suck quality wise)
It really is impossible to claim that SE's are much cheaper than other devices because they are missing the tech look how much the initial UIQ3 devices were and there prices only dropped because of their problems. I very much doubt the W960 is going to be cheap by any stretch of the imagination so this argument of SE are cheaper really makes no sense IF they were cheaper they are still old tech.
I agree with this example but not for P1 or the A200 K850. And it will only be for the first 6 months as all OEM's do. After that the price will settle down
Can you please stop this obsession with the N95 we get you don't rate it but why do you have to compare everything all the time to it. You mention it all the time now and compare it to devices it is not comparable to.
As I said above I initially make my arguments on merit alone but am shouted down about how bad SE are with examples of Nokia bettering SE. And people expect I should just accept that SE are crap because they are behind in some areas? What you can't get, is that I have nothing against the N95. I actually like it (don't love it, but I do like it) and the only real things that turn me off are the lack of touchscreen for the price, the slide formfactor, the battery life, the slight advantage (in my view) of the K850 still camera and the Nokia UI. Of those things the UI and lack of touchscreen are the clinchers. If it had a touchscreen and an SE or WM UI, I would be interested.
Believe me I rate it but why should I have to rate it higher than P1 or K850? Surely it's my perogative to decide for myself what phone I think is better considering all factors, not just a list of specs on a sheet of paper?
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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@Max
Ignore my piece of advice if you really feel it is a little insult but it's not just me that is commenting on your attitude and that includes your fellow SE supporters.
Sorry but you are the one that is mentioning the N95 the whole time now in your post's the only time any one else does in this thread is to refute the claims you are making. What has been said in others threads is relevant to the other threads not what we are discussing here. So sorry but it is you that is constantly bringing the N95 up not anyone else.
You are not just stating your opinions but you are being both defensive and aggressive i am not the only one mentioning this either so no i am not reading more into it.
Here is a perfect example of the above
"I repeat again, I am not the one who mentions Nokia first. Whenever someone tries to say they think SE phones are great, suddenly the naysayers are waxing on about how much better Nokia are and therefore SE are crap. So I am forced to give my reasons why I think SE are better than Nokia. It's not me who starts the Nokia comparisons, but if someone wants to start it I'll be happy to finish it my friend."
As by looking through this thread i can see no suggestion by anyone of the things you claim above only what you do in this respect. It is you that is creating this constant comparison even with devices that have been out well over a Year. As of course the N80 was more expensive than a K800 the K800 is just a camera phone the N80 a smart phone. Yes the K800 takes better pictures than the N80 but that's it, the N80 has one of the best screens found in any device along with WiFi and S60 i would of been more surprised if it was the same price and yet again you are comparing SE to Nokia no one else brought this up but you.
As to where you viewed the N95 video's just saying it's from a review gives very little information as to from what source just because you know where it was from doesnt mean anyone else does unless you tell us. As obviously i wouldn't of made the comments if i knew where they were from now would i?
The P1 really is not a great example as SE said it would sell at the same price as the P990 on launch as it was initially offered only due to the lack of take up by both Networks and users did it's price drastically reduce to start selling and the reason it dropped in price was it wasn't worth what they initially tried to sell it for. The K850 is also very expensive for just a camera phone and again the fact it's price drops so fast means either it is over priced to start with or needs a price reduction to start selling in large numbers neither of these things are good IMO.
Again no one has said you have to either rate it higher or like it, but you really can't try and claim the either the P1 as a smart phone or the K850 as a camera phone are more advanced. In case you hadn't noticed many people's K850 have lots of problems yet suddenly these are just a few bugs that will get fixed. Yet when it was the N95 it meant they were all rubbish and so was Nokia double standards or what. I also wonder unlike Nokia that realeased new firmwares fast if SE will yet again take 2 months plus to release new firmware each time and that is a problem. It's bad enough having a device that needs new Firmware but waiting 4-6 months for it to be sorted in really unacceptable IMO.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-10-26 11:03 ] | |
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Posted: 2007-10-25 14:33
