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Sony Ericsson XPERIA X1 discussion |
Muhammad-Oli
Joined: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: The NZ of L
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Huh, it looks like they've redesigned the X1 slightly (for the better) around the mini-USB port and the screen orientation button (from what I remember). I'd take the X1 all the way - The hardware keyboard would be great and I really really love the design of the X1. So cool.
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WhyBe
Joined: Apr 02, 2008
Posts: > 500
From: Ohio, USA
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@Dogmann, you should not speed read my posts. You are misinterpreting my points.
I said X1 mp4@30fps may be just as good as e90's h.264@30fps depending on the codec implementation. Bitrate is crucial. Of course 15fps H.264 in the X1 would be useless. 15fps sucks in any format. Remember, H.264 is extremely CPU intensive in the encode and decode.
3gp is just a version of H.264 modified for the constraints of mobile phones.
Perhaps my sentence structure is confusing. Let me rephrase it: 3gp is just a version of H.264. However, 3gp is modified for the constraints of mobile phones.
mpeg4 = mpeg4-part 2
h.264 = mpeg4-part 10
.3gp = simplified mpeg4-part 14
Standard Def DVD = mpeg2
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@WhyBe
Maybe you should also not speed read my posts as quite simply 3gp is NOT a version of H.264 and never will be 3gp like H.264 is Mpeg4. H.263 is also a version of Mpeg4 and both H.263 and 3gp are not as a high quality as H.264. You have even posted that they are all codecs of Mpeg4 so i really can't understand how or why you think H.264 is part of 3gp as quite clearly it isn't.
So that you don't get confused the 30fps Mpeg4 in the X1 is 3gp or H.263 and both of these offer lower quality than H.264 the X1 is only able to render H.264 @15fps.
The reason that H.264 is the preferred codec is that it gives better quality from a similar file size.
Maybe to clarify it further you need to understand that the reason the Nokia's are able to handle H.264 is not just down to the processor speed but also the graphics processor that in the case of the Nokia's is the PowerVR MBX.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-05-29 14:13 ] |
WhyBe
Joined: Apr 02, 2008
Posts: > 500
From: Ohio, USA
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@Dogmann
I understand you clearly. 3gp is a part of the mpeg4 standard. The video encoding used in 3gp can be h.263 or h.264 or mpg4-part 2. WIKI Ref
I never said which has superior video between X1 or e90. I was just pointing out the fact that just because e90 sports h.264 @ 30 fps does not automatically make it superior to X1 mp4 @ 30 fps. You have to factor in bitrate capabilities of the X1 and e90 for those respective formats. Then visually compare the resultant video.
I know h.264 is the new "superior" format, but that assumes you have the sufficient CPU power to fully implement it and the bitrates used are sufficient to maintain original video quality.
[ This Message was edited by: WhyBe on 2008-05-29 14:36 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@WhyBe
If I am not wrong, H.263 is at least twice less efficient than H.264. Logic tells us that X1 would not implement a high bitrate H.263 as file size will be too huge. Typical video rec quality of N95/e90 H264 video bitrate can go as high as 5000kbps which results in about 20Mb per min of video. Achieving the same bitrate in H263 would result in an unacceptable large file size.
So going by what was implemented in K850 3gp which is about 100kbps, even if we assume that X1 can triple or quadruple this bitrate, the quality is still way below n-series. Typically those H263 video will look very blocky (i.e. unusable) if you view it on a large screen LCD/TV.
So in order to view X1 recorded video on a tv, you would have to use H264 @15fps to record which inadvertantly has jerky motion. H253 @30fps video is only good for viewing on the phone.
edited:
just saw the MDA Vario/HTC Raphael being announced. X1 prospect is looking much bleaker now since this Raphael has same or better spec than X1 (like 256MB ram, tv-out) and at about the same size and weight
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2008-05-29 15:25 ]
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2008-05-29 15:26 ] |
aksd
Joined: Nov 11, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: UK, India
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Looking at the Raphael/Diamon processor though its the MSM7201A, which is the US version that does'nt support H.264 and is simlar to the current TyTn II in video playback, I hope this is not the case, if it is then if I do buy a phone in the coming months it will be the X1 or the newly previed supposed Dream which has a built in compass and a capactive screen running android.
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WhyBe
Joined: Apr 02, 2008
Posts: > 500
From: Ohio, USA
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On 2008-05-29 16:01:55, mib1800 wrote:
@WhyBe
If I am not wrong, H.263 is at least twice less efficient than H.264. Logic tells us that X1 would not implement a high bitrate H.263 as file size will be too huge. Typical video rec quality of N95/e90 H264 video bitrate can go as high as 5000kbps which results in about 20Mb per min of video. Achieving the same bitrate in H263 would result in an unacceptable large file size.
Well, I'll be interested in seeing how all of this looks on the devices. If the e90 has the CPU power to implement h.264 @ vga @ 30 fps and at a respectable bitrate, then that's one powerful beast.
@All
How many smartphones do you guys go through in a year?  |
aksd
Joined: Nov 11, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: UK, India
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@WhyBe
Firstly, the CPU power does'nt effect your Video recording as much as the 3D accelerator does, the PowerVR accelerator on the OMAP 2420 processors used by Nokia are market leading and i used on the iPhone as well, from the documentation the MSM7200 was supposed to be better than that thoug, but till date a superior implementation of hardware acceleration to that of Nokias in multimedia is yet to be seen. I'm not an expert on video codecs I dont even watch video on my device but when I pay money for a device as high end as the X1 I expect the best, I'm sure you agree with this, but it looks like it'll still lag behind the then 2yr old N95  .
This year has been quite a few actually:
lets see 2 Nokia S60 3rd Edition
2 Linux Based Handsets on EZX
1 UIQ
1 WM(I'm quite happy with this, 7 months and counting  )
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WhyBe
Joined: Apr 02, 2008
Posts: > 500
From: Ohio, USA
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On 2008-05-29 17:47:46, aksd wrote:
@WhyBe
This year has been quite a few actually:
lets see 2 Nokia S60 3rd Edition
2 Linux Based Handsets on EZX
1 UIQ
1 WM(I'm quite happy with this, 7 months and counting )
I sort of figured an addiction problem  |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@Whybe
As i explained no one really uses 30fps as that is just not necessary as most films and TV shows are only encoded @23/24fps so increasing the frame rate gives no advantage other than increasing the likelihood of it being out of sync.
Well done you have just realised that the the E90 is one of the most powerful Symbian smart phones and as you put it one powerful beast.
As Symbian requires far less processing power then WM so the 330mhz OMAP 2420 is more than enough. Now add to that the PowerVR MBX graphics processor and yes it plays converted films and TV shows perfectly @ 800x352 in full screen on the E90 with no dropped frames stutter or out of sync audio. It also plays H.264 natively in Real Player no need to buy or use a 3rd party player either.
That is why i have stated it is better than what the X1 will be able to do and why the X1 doesn't eat every other device out there especially when it comes to Multimedia.
Well so far this year i have only had a N95 8Gb for the first two weeks as had that since November and then my E90 since 8th January. Plus i had an iPhone but put that back in the box after 3 days and sold it as just didn't enjoy using a touchscreen and found it annoying. In the previous 16 months i had a P910, M600, N70, N73, N93, TyTn, E61, N95, N95 8GB which is 9 but i have now slowed down my addiction to getting new devices. So although i may try either a BB Bold or Android device this year I'm not planning on getting rid of my E90. As i will use my upgrade for one of those and just sell it after a while.
Marc
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Coming soon BlackBerry Bold
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-05-29 17:12 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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On 2008-05-29 17:24:12, WhyBe wrote:
Well, I'll be interested in seeing how all of this looks on the devices. If the e90 has the CPU power to implement h.264 @ vga @ 30 fps and at a respectable bitrate, then that's one powerful beast.
@All
How many smartphones do you guys go through in a year?
I have just checked videos taken with my N82 and N95. For typical video taken in daylight, the bitrate varies from 2300 to 3000 kbps. Low light video bitrate is higher. In comparison, 3gp video taken by the K850 has bitrate of about 100kbps.
X1 camera/multimedia/video rec is lagging behind not just the 2 year old N95 but also the 3 year old N93 . I also have a feeling that the music quality of X1 will also lag behind N95/N82. The only thing going for X1 is just the WVGA screen. Sorry to burst your X1 bubble.
Unlike dogmann or aksd, I am more "faithful" to my phones.  For the past 2 years, I have bought 3 phones: the Atom, N95-1 and now the N82. My current main phone is the N82 and before that it was N95-1. The Atom is mainly a "explore & play" phone. Intending to buy the Diamond to replace the atom.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2008-05-29 17:25 ] |
aksd
Joined: Nov 11, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: UK, India
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On 2008-05-29 17:52:59, WhyBe wrote:
I sort of figured an addiction problem
Not really , the two EZX phones I got on a fraction of the original price from Motorola. I wanted to know what Symbian phones were like so I got two of them, sold them in a months time as I was'nt happy with them, did'nt loose any money on them, you can do that if you have the right connections . The UIQ was baiscally for my grand dad, he loves UIQ , and I settled down with the TyTn II which is WM, and I think I'll use it for a while now, needs a housing change due to some R&D work gone wrong, otherwise in good condition . Still have both EZX phones as they're more for development purposes . Like Dogmann I'm still undecided on my next phone, maybe WM maybe Android, the newer gen phones just dont justify the expenditure.
@Marc
WM does'nt use more processing power , it might have more background processes running and the video recording is'nt really dependant on the processor if a GPU exists, its for the non GPU handsets that video quality is propotional to processor speed.
@mib
Dont make me laugh, music quality with the MSM processors blows away any Nokia except maybe the N91. The MSM processor has 2 DSPs which work well, this couple with software enhancemnt such as SRS, leaves the N95 and N82 in the dust. I've extensively tested the N95 8GB with the TyTn II and taken 2nd and 3rd opinons as well the TyTn II wins hands down. The speakers on the N95 are better though.
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[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-05-29 17:26 ] |
dr.W
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 100
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On 2008-05-29 17:59:38, Dogmann wrote:
@Whybe
As i explained no one really uses 30fps as that is just not necessary as most films and TV shows are only encoded @23/24fps so increasing the frame rate gives no advantage other than increasing the likelihood of it being out of sync.
Well done you have just realised that the the E90 is one of the most powerful Symbian smart phones and as you put it one powerful beast.
As Symbian requires far less processing power then WM so the 330mhz OMAP 2420 is more than enough. Now add to that the PowerVR MBX graphics processor and yes it plays converted films and TV shows perfectly @ 800x352 in full screen on the E90 with no dropped frames stutter or out of sync audio. It also plays H.264 natively in Real Player no need to buy or use a 3rd party player either.
That is why i have stated it is better than what the X1 will be able to do and why the X1 doesn't eat every other device out there especially when it comes to Multimedia.
Well so far this year i have only had a N95 8Gb for the first two weeks as had that since November and then my E90 since 8th January. Plus i had an iPhone but put that back in the box after 3 days and sold it as just didn't enjoy using a touchscreen and found it annoying. In the previous 16 months i had a P910, M600, N70, N73, N93, TyTn, E61, N95, N95 8GB which is 9 but i have now slowed down my addiction to getting new devices. So although i may try either a BB Bold or Android device this year I'm not planning on getting rid of my E90. As i will use my upgrade for one of those and just sell it after a while.
Marc
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Nokia E90,8GB SDHC, Fring, Seven, Tom Tom 6
Coming soon BlackBerry Bold
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-05-29 17:12 ]
Personally, I don't judge a phone based on its ability to playback or record video. I just don't have the time to watch movies, or make them, on my phone. If I'm not at work I'm with my family and using a dedicated camcorder to record things. Maybe you guys have more free time, or commute to work by train, if so, good for you!
I am going to make my decision on which phone I buy based on how well it runs productivity software (office suites), user interface, and speed/quality of internet experience.
I would get an E90 if it had US 3G, in fact it is probably the only non-touchscreen smartphone I would buy based on its superior navigation tools. As things stand the X1 may very well be my next phone if it is not delayed too long.
[ This Message was edited by: dr.W on 2008-05-29 21:57 ] |
WhyBe
Joined: Apr 02, 2008
Posts: > 500
From: Ohio, USA
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On 2008-05-29 18:23:43, aksd wrote:
@Marc
...and the video recording is'nt really dependant on the processor if a GPU exists, its for the non GPU handsets that video quality is propotional to processor speed.
@aksd
Do GPU's execute video codecs too (video compression and decompression) or are these computations left to the CPU?...in the e90?...in the X1??
@Dogmann
I'd be interested in learning about the detailed X1i video specs for it's highest and lowest quality formats. For recording, I'd prefer 30fps at full VGA. I'm really doubting the e90's ability to do realtime VGA @ 30 fps @ full h.264 spec. I suspect, at that frame rate and resolution you are actually getting 3gp or some sort of compromise on full h.264. |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@WhyBe
No it's not 3gp or a comprised H.264 what ever that may be and was the the amazing thing about the N93 when launched. As it was the first to be able to record 30fps VGA in H.264 it was also the first to offer a 3x Optical Zoom i know i had one when first released and that wasn't a small device either. But since then the OMAP2420 and PowerVR MBX have made there way into the N95, N95 8GB and E90 giving them all the amazing video recording and playback abilities. which is why such a big deal is made of it as not many other mobiles can do this.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-05-30 00:22 ] | |
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Posted: 2008-05-29 14:22
