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The New 3G iPhone ! Is this the begining of the end for the SE P AND X series? |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
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On 2008-12-07 15:07:27, doministry wrote:
Not really, I disagree. The quantity is NOT all (it would be problem of course if they'd sell too little of it....) and is not decisive.
Quantity isn't everything, but the numbers really help. For instance with developer support - from a standing start in June, there are now 10,000 apps in the Appstore, with something like 300 million downloads - it's fair to say more software support than UIQ ever inspired in the six years it was a going concern. Those aren't all freebies or dross either - there are plenty of worthwhile producitivity and business-minded apps in there, with a full office suite on the way.
How many developers have SE attracted to the X1's Panel downloads? How many thousand panels are there now? The X1 may benefit from a lot of older WM software, but it's a fact that WM development has slowed to a crawl since the Appstore first showed up on the horizon - more of those developers are making more money with iPhone development now, simply because the market is so much bigger and better organised.
This rule simply does not apply and the best example is given in the computer world where the situation is absolutely opposite - WM outsells Mac computers big time, but does that mean Apple comes to an eclipse?? No!
The economics are being reversed in the phone market though. PCs and Macs have co-existed for decades, and while Apple gets the whole value of each individual Mac made and nobody else can make them, literally anyone can put together a PC, load a copy of Windows on, and sell it. Look at the phones and despite the fact that any company can make a phone and put a copy of WM on it, it's the "Mac" - a phone made only by Apple - that's outselling all the rest. Why? Because as open and widespread as WM may be, it's simply not as good.
And bear in mind that there's simply no market which would adopt too many "revolutions". As Communicator did, as P800 maybe and now iPhone.
But it doesn't make other soulutions "bad" or even worse. Marketing does not mean quality.... Look, Android won't be such an revolution even if it's better in some cases.
Do yourself a favour and don't dwell on the marketing, because it's really not the issue here. The issue is the quality of the device, what it does and how it does it. If you're unclear on that, if you've any doubt over whether the iphone actually lives up to all the hype, then I really suggest you try one.
X1 cannot be such an superselling hit just because it's too complicated, too "profi". Really, iPhone is made for "idiots", I mean people who never ever used touchscreen.
And that's where you lose any pretence of an argument, and show yourself up to be an idiot yourself. I've been using touchscreen phones since 2002, four of them before the iPhone, and yet when I picked the iPhone up I understood it was different - it's a new kind of touchscreen used in a wholly better way. Yes it simplifies everything, and no, that's no bad thing!
Of course it's still missing some features from WM, but Apple can add those next week if they want to, without complicating that interface at all. WM, on the other hand, can never compete without a complete re-write from scratch.
And believe me, if Apple did iPhone with qwerty it would kill sales. Too much complicated!
I believe Apple will do an Iphone with a qwerty in the near future (not that it particularly needs one), call it the Iphone Pro and probably bundle an Office suite. It'll sell by the bucketload to people exactly like you.
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gforce23
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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@Boinng Just out of curiosity, are you ever going to head back to WM? I know you were using a TyTnII all this while and you seem to love touchscreen phones with great productivity and all of that but doesn't the Touch HD provide all that as well?
 Satio, X1, P1i, HTC Hero, Blokia N900, N97 mini, N95-2, Crackberry Curve 8900 (corporate) |
doministry
Joined: Apr 13, 2007
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Boinng
And you fail exactly at my point - no, iPhone does not live to it's hype.
It's just a great marketing!
It's just a trend!
Wake up. Most of users do 10% of things UIQ or WM users do with their devices!
ALL of the people having iPhone I know, I repeat: ALL OF THEM,
say: "well, I don't do much with it, just call and listen to the music, it's just a nice gadget.... AND THEY GAVE me it for free, so I took it..."
Half of them admit it's a crap.
That's it.
P.S. It takes ages to implement some BASIC features to this "smartphone" so please don't be funny and tell me that they can do it tomorrow... You like it - it's great! Just remember, following your arguments - the ultimate mobile phone is Nokia 11xx/12xx series, they sold like 250 milions of it.
And sure, the good and functional touchscreen is a faboulous feature and in this field iPhone leads.
As for support - yes, appstore is great. I can bet with you - 99% of rush there is just for fun, not for any particular smartphone use.
If you say marketing is not the case here - you're blind. |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
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On 2008-12-08 12:53:51, gforce23 wrote:
@Boinng Just out of curiosity, are you ever going to head back to WM? I know you were using a TyTnII all this while and you seem to love touchscreen phones with great productivity and all of that but doesn't the Touch HD provide all that as well?
I think a touchscreen is something that, once you're used to it, you can't really give up - from the P800 onwards I've struggled with phones that I can't just prod at and scribble on.
Once I'd been dissapointed by UIQ (never really gelling with the M600, nothing really new coming in the form of the P1), WM was a good alternative last year, and the Tytn II was a supremely capable phone at the time - I still use it now as a TomTom for the car since the iPhone doesn't do turn-by-turn navigation yet. But at the moment there are too many downsides with WM in my opinion. The Tytn II had many compromises - for all its power on paper, it suffered from poor video support, laggy graphics, sluggishness, and an interface that just got in the way far too much. Some of that was down to poor hardware, a lot of it down to poor software, and although things have undoubtedly improved some with the Touch HD, there are still echoes of many of the same issues.
With the Tytn II I constantly got the sense that the OS was cobbled together without any consistent idea of what device it was made for and how it might be used, and then quite poorly implemented on the phone by somebody else entirely - and in my experience that's quite true of most WM phones. They tick all the boxes, have that long list of features, but do none of them particularly well or even reliably - and no single designer or even team of designers or programmers really takes responsibility for any of it. The OEM points at MS, MS point at ten other OEMs who are all doing something different, and the end user just gets the work in progress.
I wasn't interested in the iPhone until it got Exchange support and the Appstore opened - before third party apps were available, I didn't consider it a smartphone at all - but I fell for it pretty soon after playing with the 3G and seeing the possibilities. The hardware is excellent, the screen and UI together are simply the best, and the whole thing works because Apple have actually thought about the best ways to do certain things, and created the whole thing from the ground up. It doesn't do everything the hardened WM user might want yet, but now it's open to third party development and with a user base that's growing exponentially, that's only a matter of time.
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2008-12-08 12:39 ] |
kradcliffe
Joined: Mar 10, 2003
Posts: 434
From: Aberdeen, Scotland
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Yeah, the iphone is so bloody brilliant it doesn't even have manual EQ presets.
My P990i (after the sound mod lite) has sound quality that simply blows away the ipod touch or iphone. With the "rock" setting in the background and a few tweaks in either coreplayer or LCG the sound from the P990i is simply amazing.
I know the iphone has many other features but the music player part of it is very poor IMO. |
gforce23
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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From: Atlanta, London, Dubai
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On 2008-12-08 14:06:32, kradcliffe wrote:
Yeah, the iphone is so bloody brilliant it doesn't even have manual EQ presets.
My P990i (after the sound mod lite) has sound quality that simply blows away the ipod touch or iphone. With the "rock" setting in the background and a few tweaks in either coreplayer or LCG the sound from the P990i is simply amazing.
I know the iphone has many other features but the music player part of it is very poor IMO.
Umm, settings->iPod->EQ??
Satio, X1, P1i, HTC Hero, Blokia N900, N97 mini, N95-2, Crackberry Curve 8900 (corporate) |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
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On 2008-12-08 13:37:16, doministry wrote:
And you fail exactly at my point - no, iPhone does not live to it's hype.
It's just a great marketing!
It's just a trend!
Yeah, ok, you keep saying those tired old words. Add a few exclamation marks!! Maybe if you believe them enough, they'll come true.
Wake up. Most of users do 10% of things UIQ or WM users do with their devices!
Add a made up statistic, that's bound to help!
"Most of"
"10%"
Yeah, you've got me on the science!
I only use the iPhone to call people, text, maintain a couple of spreadsheets, watch videos, listen to music, play games (a lot of games - I was never much of a gamer before, but games on the iphone are fun), do virtually all my web surfiing of course (the laptop at home barely gets a look in now), look at maps when I'm out walking, take the odd snap, take notes, check the weather, check the latest Bloomberg stock quotes, Facebook, blog, download and read ebooks, have all my work email pushed to me and work wherever, and generally fulfill a multitude of other tasks and PDA functions... I barely need a phone at all in fact.
ALL of the people having iPhone I know, I repeat: ALL OF THEM,
say: "well, I don't do much with it, just call and listen to the music, it's just a nice gadget.... AND THEY GAVE me it for free, so I took it..."
No offence, but you must know some seriously stupid people, for them to either not understand what the phone's capable of, or not be able to find another much cheaper phone more suited to their needs.
If ALL of them just call and listen to the music, then I repeat: ALL OF THEM are thick as, and just blew a load of money when they could have had a cheap old walkman on a much cheaper contract. Don't hesitate to tell them that from me. Incidentally, you might want to suggest they just hand the phones over to you - they're obviously easily lead so they'll do it - then you can sell them on for tons of money. Buy them a W910 each and keep the rest for yourself, why not.
Half of them admit it's a crap.
That's it.
You know you're right, if half your moronic friends who don't even know why they've got an iPhone think its crap, then I may as well stamp on mine right now, I'm clearly an idiot for seeing anything more in it.
P.S. It takes ages to implement some BASIC features to this "smartphone" so please don't be funny and tell me that they can do it tomorrow...
It's only been 18 months since the original model was released out of nowhere - as flawed as it was in terms of missing features, it still set the bar which every other manufacturer has been reaching for since. One model later and it's moved on incredibly already, with third party support turning into a fully fledged gaming device, a mobile office, and everything else under the sun. You think Apple are standing still? You don't expect to see anything new from them next year?
You like it - it's great! Just remember, following your arguments - the ultimate mobile phone is Nokia 11xx/12xx series, they sold like 250 milions of it.
The argument in terms of this thread is simply - was the iPhone 3G a threat to the P and X series. My answer, the very obvious answer, was yes - it was. The fast pace of change brought about by the iPhone ultimately lead to the demise of UIQ and the P series, which couldn't keep up - likewise, the X1 - SE's multimedia lead, "experience" driven response to the iPhone - has been completely overshadowed by Apple's platform growth, driven entirely by the iPhone 3G.
Say what you like about "professional" devices now, but the X1 and the whole Xperia brand was supposed to be mass market, a multimedia feast, a touchscreen eXperience - all of that has fallen away now.
If you say marketing is not the case here - you're blind.
There a none so blind as those that will not see...
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2008-12-08 13:32 ] |
doministry
Joined: Apr 13, 2007
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Boinng
You really have problem with some simple comprehension, maybe than you play too much on your device? My friends who you just offended (just a part of your great argumentation I assume) are the example of 90% of iPhone customers = people buying it for hype. Just for it plus it's for free for most customers of main providers. That's it about numbers.
The above activities you mentioned can be obtained on any average feature phone, just a bit better like the camera quality or the sound quality or ringtone level etc.
Maybe you're to young to get it or whatever, this discussion is pointless with an fanboy.
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[ This Message was edited by: doministry on 2008-12-08 13:44 ] |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
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On 2008-12-08 14:32:07, doministry wrote:
Boinng
You really have problem with some simple comprehension, maybe than you play too much on your device. My friends who you just offended are the example of 90% of iPhone customers = people buying it for hype. That's it about numbers.
So I offended them (because naturally they're reading this forum), but they're not at all insulted by your portrayal of them as mindless goons, buying phones entirely based on hype, and expressing no will of their own? Okay.
And just to be clear, you're portraying 90% of the iPhone customer base as lumbering fools, unable to comprehend their own purchasing decisions? Your exhaustive research and personal experience leads you to believe that just 10% of iPhone users actually get on with their phones? Cripes.
Lucky me. I am the one in ten.
Maybe you're to young to get it or whatever, this discussion is pointless with a fanboy.
Aha! There's the magic word, that solid gold get-out clause - of course, I'm a fanboy! Case closed. Good argument. Very formiddable debating I'm sure.
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2008-12-08 13:40 ] |
doministry
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Man you really don't get it, do you??
I never offend my friends or anyone, just look around!!!
Most of people just don't care about the mobile phones so they get what is given! Or what is fashionable!
It does not make them idiots, they just don't care. So in this area the marketing is the best way to SELL. In big numbers.
I don't know if you're an idiot - you know it, I have no interest.
But the thing you keep in your hands is what it is - a great marketing with a beautiful screen. And a big lie underneath.
Yes, maketing makes miracles with people.
(P.S. Just look what are the top 10 apps in the appstore... 
a w a r e |
arvinlad
Joined: Mar 26, 2005
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From: A P1iW [8Gb] in Lancs UK ;-)
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@ Boinng
You seem a 'together iPhone user' - ignore Domistrys rants 
A genuine question...
I love the look of the iPhone from the ads - never have used one so I can't comment on it's abilities - but your judgement and writeup sounds good - thanks.
My main concern is that it seems considerably wider and taller than a P1i although slimmer - is this right? I find the P1i very easy to carry round and hardly notice it in the pocket - even OK in track trousers jogging much to my surprise. I love the huge looking screen of the iPhone - but is it as comfortable in the pocket?
Thanks 
www.answersingenesis.org , www.expelledthemovie.com/home.php |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
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On 2008-12-08 14:50:16, doministry wrote:
Man you really don't get it, do you??
I never offend my friends or anyone, just look around!!!
Most of people just don't care about the mobile phones so they get what is given! Or what is fashionable!
It does not make them idiots, they just don't care.
The thing is, it's you that called them idiots. You did that. You brought the term up - it's your word. You said:
"Really, iPhone is made for "idiots", I mean people who never ever used touchscreen. "
You may be backpeddalling from the open insult now, but you're still clinging to this idea that iPhone users buy on the back of the hype only - with your "most" this, "90%" that, your basic (and completely unsubstantiated) point is that all those people that disagree with you (ie, all the people with iphones) are senseless idiots that were suckered in by the hype. And I'm sorry, but as much as that might go down well on Esato, it's wrong. Plain, ugly old wrong.
So in this area the marketing is the best way to SELL. In big numbers.
I don't know if you're an idiot - you know it, I have no interest.
But the thing you keep in your hands is what it is - a great marketing with a beautiful screen. And a big lie underneath.
What's the lie? Can you tell me that? What am I, the idiot, blinded by marketing, not seeing?
I've used two generations of UIQ, I've used one of the most advanced WM phones ever released (only slightly bettered by the X1 this year), I've been taking things like touchscreens, mobile internet, email, music, and business apps for granted since 2002, and yet I look at my iPhone 3G of two months and see one of the best phones/gadgets I've ever had. It's faster than any phone I've ever had, the web browsing is far better, the responsiveness is better, everything about the UI is better, even the basics like taking a call are better than some of my previous "smart" phones. Email (even work email) is a joy. The keyboard is better than the chunky great hard keyboard that used to slide out of my Tytn II, Wifi is stronger, the available software far better quality and cheaper at the same time.
That's all marketing, right? Which bits are the lie, all of them?
Yes, maketing makes miracles with people.
It's making something out of you
(P.S. Just look what are the top 10 apps in the appstore...
I'm looking now, 7 of them are quite high quality games (things like Cro-Mag Rally, Touchgrind, Brothers in Arms, Crash Bandicoot), then there's a medical type utility to test your eyesight, a "night camera" photo enhancement tool, and a speed camera utilty that uses the GPS to warn you of traffic cams. Is there a hilarious joke in there somewhere?
Those are just the paid ones mind, the top ten freebies range from Google Earth, to Joost (a media player for online videos), a few little games, a clock application, a WiFi seeker to hunt out free hotspots, a news aggregator, and a cocktail recipe app. Surprised not to see a few others in there like the Facebook app, the Google Search app (with voice search), Stanza the ebook reader, Last FM, Bloomberg, MyRail Lite (live departure boards from any UK railway station) - they're all free too. Where's the funny joke? Did I miss it?
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anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
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On 2008-12-08 15:53:31, arvinlad wrote:
@ Boinng
You seem a 'together iPhone user' - ignore Domistrys rants
A genuine question...
I love the look of the iPhone from the ads - never have used one so I can't comment on it's abilities - but your judgement and writeup sounds good - thanks.
My main concern is that it seems considerably wider and taller than a P1i although slimmer - is this right? I find the P1i very easy to carry round and hardly notice it in the pocket - even OK in track trousers jogging much to my surprise. I love the huge looking screen of the iPhone - but is it as comfortable in the pocket?
Thanks
Well, I'll try to be fair here - I never had a P1 - my last UIQ phone was the M600, which was a little lighter and slimmer than a P1 if anything - but, for the last year I carried an HTC Tytn II, which is huge in comparison, and after that anything seems like a lightweight!
The iPhone is obviously slightly wide so depending on the pocket it could be a tighter fit than your P1, but I've never had a problem. It's light and very slim (with a curved back that makes it seem slimmer) and generally slips in and out my pockets very easily. I started to keep it in a "sock" just to keep the back nice (the screen itself is glass and you'd be unlucky to scratch it) and even with that on I can get in my jeans or shirt pocket no problem... it always gets a pocket of its own though, like any of my phones (keys and phones never mix!)
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doministry
Joined: Apr 13, 2007
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Boinng,
if you don't see a clear distinction between your personal preferences and the general device's approach/analisys,
that's definitely not my problem.
As for the main topic my answer is no - iPhone is not surpassing Xperia to an end since it's not possible to really surpass a profi device with a great gadget. That's a different cathegory.
a w a r e |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
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Domistry - can you define a "profi" phone, and explain why the iphone isn't one?
Are you saying that nobody that might have bought the X1 has since bought the iPhone 3G? Because if so, you're wrong - if I'd bought another WM device to replace my Tytn II (and not been tempted away to an alternative OS entirely) it most probably would have been the X1.
if you don't see a clear distinction between your personal preferences and the general device's approach/analisys,
that's definitely not my problem.
The device doesn't have an analysis, you have an analysis of the device, and sadly it's not a very well informed one. I'd suggest you need to take another look at the distinction between the reality of what many iPhone users (like myself) are saying, and what you might prefer to be true.
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2008-12-08 15:34 ] | |
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Posted: 2008-12-08 12:45
Satio, X1, P1i, HTC Hero, Blokia N900, N97 mini, N95-2, Crackberry Curve 8900 (corporate)
